Episode 19 – apEX Interview

Banks Hello, everyone, it's episode 19 of the All About Counter-Strike Podcast, and this is another special. This is all about apEX, the Vitality in-game leader who has not only had an amazing career, but has had an amazing seven months, I would say, that many can't fault in this. I do this at the start of every episode. It is the 14th of July, 2025. Right now, it is nine minutes past eight for me, which means for Devilwalk and apEX, who are an hour behind me, it's nine minutes past seven. So anything we're discussing about that happens after this, you never know what could come out, news and stuff like that. We won't be able to cover it. This is live now. This is what we're doing. This is how we're operating. Devilwalk, I'm going to start with you because you're always here. You have to be here. You kind of like me. You're stuck. How are you doing, man? It's pretty hot in Sweden right now, right?

Devilwalk It's really hot and I have my like... I'm sweating so much. Even before this episode, I went for a cold shower. I had three cold showers today just to like kind of chill down. But since I live in the northern parts of Sweden and my apartment is against like where the sun is the whole day, it gets extremely hot in here and the sun is up for 24-7. So you can imagine there's some sweaty waking ups in the night.

Banks Dan, what's it like for you where you're at?

apEX Well, actually, it's pretty hot as well. Just a little tip, it's good at the moment to take a cold shower, but it's the worst after. You use a lot of energy and then it's hotter and hotter. So that's a rookie mistake to not do when we get up.

Banks He's just going to get warmer throughout this episode. Devilwalk's face is going to get red throughout all of it. He's going to be thinking back to what apEX said and goes, why did I make this rookie mistake?

Devilwalk I have to cut, I have to go for a cold shower now.

Banks Ten-minute break, go again. ApEX, do you have air-con where you're from?

apEX Okay, in France, usually we have, but here, as we are moving in the mountains and every night, it gets more fresh. It's really easy to just open the windows and all the fresh air you get inside. I just have a fan close to me and that's enough.

Banks See, I got air-con, so I don't understand any of the problems that Devilwalk has right now. I'm just laughing at him, having to sweat through out all of this. But Dan, the first thing I wanted to bring up here is, we wanted to have some fun, because it's not the most serious when we start off this podcast. I made Devilwalk go back.

Devilwalk Banks wanted to have fun.

Banks I wanted this, I wanted this, to look back at Devilwalk versus apEX, because your career has been so long. And even when Devilwalk was still playing, not coaching, you guys went up against each other.

apEX I actually remember most of the games we played, probably.

Devilwalk You have an insane memory, apEX. Yes, I do.

apEX I think the first time we played... Okay, I'm not sure about this one. Were you in the Epsilon lineup?

Devilwalk Yes.

apEX So we played DreamHack Summer Semi-Final. We lost to you guys. I remember that. Then we played probably... The next one was probably Clammystic, at the Major in Best of 1, when you beat us on Inferno, by the way. 16-7? 16-7, no? Something like that.

Banks Wait, I'm opening it.

Devilwalk It is something like that.

Banks 16-6. 16-6.

apEX I think 16-6, okay? I remember we got fucked.

Banks You top-fragged, Dan. You top-fragged.

apEX Oh, wow. On the 16-6. And yeah, I think... I mean, maybe we played more. I'm not sure, but...

Devilwalk We played a couple of online Caps as well.

apEX Yeah, online as well, but yeah.

Devilwalk It was like some frag bite leads and some ECA matches and stuff.

apEX I remember everything, mate. So I remember like we lost... That three-match summer, by the way, was like a nightmare for me as well. Like it was a really big, hard moment for me. I actually played really bad against you guys, but I had like a lot of problems in my life. And also at the tournaments, like both combined, I came to the tournaments without a passport. So I took a train and taxi from Paris, 34 hours to arrive. I arrived the day before the tournament. My aunt back then tried to commit a suicide. She actually died after that. I like everything in this tournament, it was the worst. And I also remember eating at MAX, taking like a hot sauce, and having a really bad stomach pain during our game.

Banks It was too spicy.

apEX It was too spicy, yeah. I mean, for my mouth it's okay, but always for my stomach it's a big problem right after. And I remember that so well. And also I had to pay for the hotel, because back then the DLC gave me the money to pay. And the guy, the Swedish guy, broke my credit card. Like, everything in the same weekend. Yeah, that was my tournament.

Devilwalk What a great journey. And also, John Chopin is not an easy place to get to either way, even if you're flying.

apEX A train or whatever. So, yeah, that was my story at that tournament.

Banks Bro, the first time I went to Dreamhack in 2007, I think I flew to Denmark, because it's easier. Met a friend in Denmark, drove across, and then drove all the way down to John Chopin. It's a wild journey. It's crazy.

Devilwalk We did find a couple of games. Obviously, there's gonna be some games that are like on the ECA client that wasn't on HLTV or whatever. But we made a little bit of a scoring system. Maybe you... Can you guess if you want more or if I want more?

apEX Okay, I remember the LAN games, but not the internet ones. So it's gonna be tough. So I guess we played when I was LDLC, Clan Mystic, LDLC again, maybe Titan. I guess it has to be Titan, but I think you have the upper hand.

Devilwalk Oh, okay. But I know it's actually the ones I found at least. I did not check ECA games or anything. You win four versus three.

apEX Ah, okay. But you won two on LAN, so...

Devilwalk Yeah, that's true.

apEX And I won back on the month.

Devilwalk I got carried. You were the carry back then.

apEX I was actually good that time, so I wasn't getting carried that much back then, so it's okay.

Banks Yeah, you're doing pretty good now, stats-wise, Dan. Mr. IGL, we can't say anything bad about that.

apEX Lately, yeah, for sure, lately it's better.

Banks That was just a bit of a fun way for us to open things up, because I wanted viewers to understand how far apEX, your career goes back, because it wasn't even just in CSGO, obviously, it was Source as well before that. And this is the thing, we always do this with viewers, we look back at their first ever HLTV game. Now, your first ever HLTV game was back in 2012, but that was not, they didn't cover Source.

apEX It was on CSGO, wasn't it, with the mouse guy?

Banks Yes, yes, it was the mouse guy.

Devilwalk You're playing with four German guys, and I'm like, what the hell is this?

apEX I was just turning in, I was just playing, and I'm not sure I had the team at that time, and they asked Stavros and Strux, asked me to play a qualifier with them, and here is my first HLTV game.

Banks That's brilliant. So it was just a stand-in moment, there was just, you're the right person. Did you speak any German?

apEX I wasn't even speaking English back then, so imagine the communication. I was just trying to kill people, that's all I could do.

Banks They just said, apEX, do this, and you kind of do that.

Devilwalk apEX is fine, he's an entry fragger, he will run.

apEX Do whatever you want, they told me, and they spoke German on the side.

Devilwalk Oh, that's brilliant.

Banks That's actually so brilliant. Even though, right, this is where people may even forget this, you even had a huge beginning career in CS Source, right? And that wasn't covered on HLTV because of the difference between 1.6 and CS Source, but I want to just ask you, what team was it that you first considered where you were a professional player? Because I know also sometimes there were salary issues and stuff like that, even in Source, right? Is it just VeryGames, was it LDLC, was it 3D Max? Where is it from your perspective where you were a professional player for the first time?

apEX It's that easy at all because what do we really mean by professional? Like earning a salary, because back then on Source, like not many teams were earning a salary. For example, my only salary I got was from VeryGames and I was 130 euro.

Banks Oh my god!

apEX Yeah, I could buy so much stuff back then. But yeah, that was like a really old time. But yeah, I don't know. For me, the sure thing is I arrived like in good teams with 3D Max Cypher a bit before, 2010-11. That was the moment I really like went up in the team and I was like competing against the best team in the world. So I was able to win like one trophy with 3D Max against VeryGames. They were like the team 2-bit, they were never losing to anyone. With Shock, Scream, Flexor or ESP back then, we beat them. So I would say maybe that moment, but yeah, we were in the best team, but not sure it was professional. The first salary I got was in VeryGames.

Banks Okay. So from a salary perspective, VeryGames, if you look at it from a team perspective, maybe 3D Max?

apEX Yeah. 3D Max or Cypher a bit before. I remember Cypher was the first team I got where they were sponsored by a brand. I mean, back then by CSERES and I received everything at home. That was the first time I got everything for free. I could choose on the website what I wanted and that was so fun, mate.

Devilwalk Dude, that is like one of the first experiences I have. I thought I was a professional when I received free mouse pads, a keyboard, you know.

apEX Exactly.

Devilwalk I had said.

apEX I was like, back then, I mean, I was 17, so no money to afford much stuff, of course. And that moment you receive like 500 euro worth of keyboard, mouse, and etc. So I remember I also changed my mouse back then to play with the mouse I received because I found it, wow, okay. I'm so happy and privileged to get all of that.

Devilwalk Yeah.

Banks Yeah, you really want to use it. You're like thinking, oh, this is amazing, you know, a bit of fresh gear.

apEX Exactly. That was so, so, so crazy. It was just the best moment to receive all of that. I was waiting at my mom every day to tell her, did you receive it or not yet?

Banks Like, and it's crazy, right? Because I think a lot of new players will never have this feeling. Yeah. Like they don't understand the same thing.

Devilwalk No, it used to be competitions. You would just grind with your team for during weekends to even win like five mousepads or a headset or something like this.

apEX The step I had as well was VARIO Games, because of course VARIO Games was known as the best, etc. and the best organization, because both Existence and Njak were making this stuff together, like they're really professional. Like it was like an institution. You were not joining a team, you were joining an institution where you had to follow the rules, really being professional. They were teaching you how to do interviews, how to do stuff like that. And that was like a next step. And when you joined the team, back then, of course, we had to travel with the computer, with the screen, etc. So they were giving us a Samsonite's suitcase, where you could put the back then, it was a Samsung 2233LZ. Remember that screen, the first one? So we had the package with the shuttle, like the small computer, and all the stuff, the very good stuff. And they were giving you that when you were entering the team. And also, we were going to the office back then to have like, seeing the boss, being on the table with the boss and explaining to you what he was explaining from you. I felt like it was so much professional. It was like my first job, you go to your first job, you're really stressed. Because they had to say okay at the end, like, okay.

Devilwalk Did you show up in a suit and like...

apEX No, no, I didn't have a suit. Not enough money to buy a suit back then. So I joined it with whatever I had, I don't remember. But I remember that we were joining them at the office, trying to look good and speak well, to be able to join the games.

Devilwalk That's brilliant.

apEX Yeah, that was good.

Devilwalk Even more professional back then than some of the orgs now, I think.

apEX For sure. I'm 100% sure.

Banks Oh, yes, we know that, right? There's some dark organizations out there of how this goes. All right. So Very Games obviously was a huge point for any player in source, especially a French player for you. But it was a bit of short time that you had within that team, right? Then we go into CSGO. And to not spend too much time on the past in here, I want to see if I'm writing saying that maybe ESWC 2013 was like the first big tier one event you would say that you went on to win.

apEX Actually, I will pick up another one. I will pick up the Prague Challenge. Do you remember that? When we beat Prague Challenge, I go there with a mix with Overdrive, Kenyus, Niro and Taz. We actually beat in the semifinal the Mallsport guys, the last UK team that was revalent, by the way, with Rattlesnake, Enix, XZ, Release and PT, I think, was the all five of them. We beat them with a mix and then we beat the legendary Na'Vi lineup, Starix, Markalov, etc. Zeus, Xenia, and that's the last tournament they did together. Both teams were beaten in the semifinal. They lost to a mix, so they were like, okay, no way.

Devilwalk It's time to disband.

apEX Exactly. For me, that was my first win because thanks to that back then, first of all, I never expected to win that tournament because we had big teams like that. And also in the quarterfinals, we also beat Bialy and Snax back then. I remember that they were in like a sub-top Polish, and that's just before they joined at the VP.

Banks Okay.

apEX And winning there was like a huge thing for us because it made me like being a bit more known as well, even though I was already. Also thanks to that, I didn't have to work during that summer to go to vacation because I won a 1K raw cash prize.

Banks Yeah.

apEX And that was what I wanted to go to vacation. Like it changed a lot of small things. And also Nioh back then and Taz asked me to do a team with Kenny.

Banks Yeah. So that's what I'm looking at here. This team is like Taz, Nioh, Kenny, apEX and then overdrive.

apEX Yeah.

Devilwalk Overdrive paid everyone, right?

apEX He paid the entrance and the hotel, etc. Yeah, exactly. Didn't give any more money, but he was paying the entrance because me, I couldn't come to like a land mix. I didn't have the money. So yeah, he paid for it.

Banks Tell me this because I never knew overdrive as a player. Was he good or did he need a hard carry?

apEX Okay. On CSGO when we did that line, I think he had 100 hours overall on CSGO after one year of the release. So it was pretty bad, but he did like two really important clutch that made us win actually. But yeah, it was like a heavyweight at that time.

Banks That's a good way to explain it. So that's nice to get it from your perspective of how important that event is. Just looking down this, I'm going to bring this up for when we do the edit, so the viewers at home can see just the teams and the players that were here. This was no small event. So this is a big deal for you as a player. You're very young at this point as well. Then obviously, if we look at where the change goes for you, we then see it's like almost a constant rise. So then ESWC has got to be a huge one in terms of who you end up beating in the final as well.

apEX Yeah, beating the French in the final. Also, I remember like... Okay, the crazy part is back then NiP is the best team in the world, NIP. And we played a group stage, I remember, and we beat... I mean, we played Complexity, like it was the squad, Geeko, etc. And we were done 10-5 on... We started CT on Nuke, we were done 10-5, I remember that like it was yesterday. And we come back 10-5, so it's 15-15, no better than a group stage game. Thanks to that, we arrived first in the group. If we arrived second, we would have played NIP in quarter, and I'm pretty sure we would have been eliminated already. Instead of that, we played FM Toxic, a UK team.

Banks Yep.

apEX And we beat them. And I quite easily. So then, of course, we get to the next step. Astronaut Diagram, three maps winning on Dust2, losing 16-14 on Nuke, Inferno Nuke, Dust2. I remember that like it was yesterday. We beat them, and then we go to very games in the final, playing the French on Amsoil back then, and beating them 2-0 on Inferno and Mirage. Mirage that we almost never played together. With Clamistic, we lose 12-3 on the T side, and we come back 13-0 on the C side. I remember that. It's the first win in the ESG Brazil.

Devilwalk I remember that event. I was obviously there playing. We came 5th to 8th. Terrible tournament for us, but obviously there were so many new parts of CSGO then. I remember full final French commentators, no English commentators.

apEX Yeah, back then, he was abusing. Because in France, anyway, it was even worse before that no one was speaking English. So why would you do it? It's a bit like in China, they do it right now. In the arena, it was in Chinese. Yeah.

Devilwalk It was really hard to follow. But there was a big crowd, I would say, still.

apEX Yeah, it was like, I think, 2000 or 1500. Yeah, I remember the long range. I had it on my Facebook profile, not a picture profile, but you know the one that you have in the back?

Banks Oh, the background.

apEX Yeah, the background. I have it with the people, and I remember that it spread some people there behind us.

Devilwalk Did you feel like that was some kind of like, okay, I don't know exactly what happened when you switched over to CSGO, but they obviously didn't continue with you specifically in Berry Games, and then you kind of grind your way up to this ESWC. Did you feel like it was kind of like, I don't know, I don't want to say like, fuck you, but like a revenge kind of arc in some way, like, you know, to viewers personally?

apEX It was really tough to get kicked from Berry Games. That was the first time in my career I got kicked, and I understood, I didn't understand the reason, because I mean, we could go on like a 30 minute talk on that, because I remember everything once again, and I have a, etc. But it was tough, and I really wanted to take a revenge from that. So actually, I joined a team with Shox, etc. at the beginning, but I stayed only a week, because I wanted to create my own project with Happy and Maniac that we played a lot together after that. But yeah, at that time, at least we beat them in the final. That's the first title I get as a CSGO player, with almost unknown players, except Artz and Yorick, that also won 8.6, but no one expected them to come back and win a trophy after like five or six years. So yeah, that was a really nice moment. I really remember it. And that was like, okay, I can also be like changing a team as well, just by joining them and being like one of the guys that... Because I wasn't the best player there, I remember, but the way I was working and the way I was trying to help them to grow as players helped us to win the trophy, for sure, because we are talented players, but it was needed.

Devilwalk I think you're still like, okay, if I remember back, you as a player, like now in the older days, I consider being annoying to play against to be one of the most valuable characteristics you can have in Counter-Strike, you know? And you were annoying to play against, no matter if it felt like you were random or did something, you know, like, why is he pushing there or something like this? Yeah, exactly, but you were annoying as hell, because you were a guy you instantly looked at, no matter what team you were playing with, this guy, we need to keep track of this guy, because he can do anything at any point in time, you know?

apEX Yeah, it's like for us, GW in a way, that was already ready to go close, pass with you off all the time, and it was annoying to play as well, so I know what you mean.

Devilwalk So I would still consider you probably the most recognizable players to play against.

apEX Yeah, okay, thank you. I was also like the person I am and the player I was. I was just like I was working, but I was just trying to do whatever I felt in the moment. A bit too much, maybe.

Devilwalk Sometimes, maybe.

Banks There's always a bit of give and take with that.

apEX Yeah.

Banks I want to ask you this at this point, because obviously, you said getting removed from very games, it's obviously an upsetting, not a great moment, but then you come back from this point from Clown Mystic, and it looks like you just continue to rise throughout your career. But was there any point, maybe before you won the majors and stuff like that, where you thought about you were going to give up or you were going to stop trying? Because the apEX I know is someone who's super determined, so I can't imagine you doing that, but it's just a question I've never asked you.

apEX Yeah, no, never, never. Even worse before because CS was a drug for me. I love CS more than anything else. I was playing CS 100 hours, 50 hours past a week, all the time. There were no breaks. Whenever I was doing a break, I was like, no way, I want to play CS again. So I was never like, I'm going to give up, I'm going to do that. Actually, in a way, when I look back at my career overall, I'm really proud also of the choice I did in general. Sometimes not doing what one was expecting, but trying to do something that I was thinking was the best for myself and for the team. Yeah, I mean, of course, I never thought about giving up.

Banks That's good. That's really good. And it shows in your character and what's happened across your career. So I think the next point is because this is what I mean, we could do this podcast about six hours with you. We haven't got that time. So I'm trying to skip a few bits across it.

apEX And I swear, I remember everything. Like, I think I do remember all this.

Devilwalk I think it's crazy, man.

apEX I did a game with Mezi. Yeah, just. I OK, I wasn't right on everything, but we did for four years of every games we played. I remember like 95% of who we played, not the score, but the map of it. So like, yeah, we did this tournament, we went to this tournament and we played them, them, them. We did that. And then a little thing.

Devilwalk Do you also have the same, like, for what strats you've used in the past? You can kind of like feel like this.

apEX For example, I know the way I fucked the last opponent, so I don't have enough to watch the way we played. Not all the time, okay? So sometimes, of course, I mean, now as I have more responsibilities and I do even more stuff, there are stuff that I don't remember and I need to re-watch them. But sometimes, yeah, I'm like, yeah, I remember the first battle when we did that, the antique, or we did that, so yeah.

Devilwalk So I can imagine you, like, when you're being an in-game leader, you just get like a light bulb pop up in your head, like, bing, this is what we need to do. We did this when people played like this back then, you know?

apEX Yeah. I mean, sometimes I remember a strat that I was doing three years ago, and we rerun it now and it works.

Banks Really?

apEX Yeah.

Devilwalk That's really cool.

Banks So you say it's a strat that's run three years ago, but I'm guessing some of the newer players may not know this fully, so you're just trying to like micromanage them to do this, this, this?

apEX Oh no, but it didn't work anymore. You know, sometimes with the meta, like, I think like the strats are a bit over cycled, you know, sometimes the meta is more outside, sometimes it's a bit more in there, for example, in the pubs or whatever. And sometimes I'm like, no, I'm home, I'm thinking about CS, I'm like, I think right now this strat would work. I'm pretty sure it will work. So I'm going on TheoryCraft again a bit to just find the nades again, if I don't remember them. And then I go to my players and show them the strat. And here we go. We run it again. And sometimes it works.

Banks Dude, that's crazy. And it's probably just another testament of why you're able to do what you do now as a leader as well. Is there stuff you remember even from back in Source days? Can we go that far back? Oh my God.

apEX I mean, for sure. I remember the big tournament we played in ESWC. Because I played ESWC in Source. We had one. And I remember who I played. Maybe not all the games, but most of the games as well. Yeah, I mean, I remember a lot. I remember 3DMAX against Verygames, Grand Final. I remember the map we played. Even the semi, I'm pretty sure I remember the map we played against Verygames. I think we started by those two. We won it, lost to Inferno and beat them on Train. That was the stream match we played.

Devilwalk I don't have that memory. That's the same to me. But I could see it being like a huge advantage for you as an in-game leader.

apEX It is.

Devilwalk It is.

apEX It is on a lot of stuff. It is. Yeah, I swear it is.

Banks It's impressive. Super impressive. All right. So we'll continue going through the dates and get towards the envy moments of your career. Because obviously, envy will take us to the first major title as well. But it was six titles across. And I personally look at this as where we started to see that rise I'm talking about really come, right? Not just because of the major, because of the titles and success. At that point, was this where you're thinking, okay, I'm at the very top of global counter-strike?

apEX Yeah, I think at that moment, specifically 2015, in my opinion, I'm probably the best entry fragger, like pro entry fragger in the world. Yeah. I'm doing a really good tournament on that one. We can also say once again, like who we played and the way everything went. I remember that in the quarter we played Fnatic and we really wanted to take our revenge because they beat us in the Cologne Grand Finals. It was really important for us to beat them and we beat them on a... actually, it was pretty violent on a cache when we were 6-2 on the third map. But yeah, that's the moment I knew I put my name on the top of CS and having like your... like the small thing is just having like your little trophy in the game and all of that was like, yeah. And this is the craziest, is that these tournaments, at that time... okay, in the French scene, apEX was like a different guy than now because people were trying to like actually fuck each other in the back. And me, I just tried to be the best version of myself and trying to get a job and trying to be in the best team without talking too much, without putting too much struggle. That's why also I was that player running first all the time. Because no one wanted to do that. No one.

Banks Most thankless role.

apEX Exactly. I also wanted to have other roles. I also wanted sometime... I remember saying to ApEX, sometime I think when I'm in late round, I will be better and said, no, we want you to be entry. And nowadays, if you say that, you have a discussion, you have like, okay, maybe we can put you in some better thing, etc. And it wasn't like entering like Dong does right now, you know? It's like being a mid. Like just run and die and try to kill one if you can.

Devilwalk It was a sacrificial lamb kind of entry back in the day.

apEX That was the worst. So I was just trying to do my best, trying to be like a good teammate, even though sometime I was a bit of a rager, of course. I was just trying to be the best version of myself and I actually made it in a way at that moment.

Banks You say like you were a bit of a rager as well. You've always been like an emotional player this whole way. You've always shown us that emotion, whenever we're looking at the cameras, the way you act and the way you are. But did that ever get you in trouble with some of these earlier teams, like when these shuffles were going on, or did some people maybe not like it?

apEX Yeah, of course, in the French team, people didn't like it that much. I was actually, for example, at the end of the year's day, I was not as much as I was last year or the year before. Because when you get in control of a team and when you are in GL, everything is more frustrating in a way.

Banks Yeah.

apEX When people fuck up or do a mistake, that was the problem for me. But in a way, what I could say is in the French teams, mostly after with G2 and so on, I couldn't be the person and the player I wanted to be. It was not possible with them because some players didn't like that, and you had to follow a certain way to play, a certain way to be, and you couldn't be yourself both outside of the game and in the game. When I say outside of the game, it's not the way you act, it's the way you act in the game, but outside of the game, as a human. So both of them were controlled in a way, and that was tough for me because as you can see the way I am, I just want... The first person that told me also that my emotions, both my strengths and my weakness was Lars back in 2022. He told me what you are, when you are giving your good energy, et cetera, you are the best. That's simply that, you are the best. But whenever it goes on the other way, you can make you win your team because you have a good leadership, the way you talk, the way you act. We can win just because of that, because everyone could feel it, or the other way, you can make them lose in a way because you are getting too crazy. And when I understood that, everything got easier in my head.

Banks Yeah. And that didn't come until 2022.

apEX Yeah, exactly. Because we didn't have also that many performance coach before. It was not normal back then. Managers, coaches tried to do it, but without knowing about emotion. Trying to do it with the past they had in their life and the way they were dealing with themselves with emotion, etc. That's why having a person like that helped me back then to be a better version of myself. And I also understood that what I was was good. I just had to control everything. And I also, I'm a big fan of sports. And I know that players like Djokovic in tennis, for example, or Federer, they were like, I mean, Djokovic is still a big rager right now. You know, he's still, but in Federer, and I heard like interviews about them, like the way they were saying, like it took years for them to control their emotions, to be able to know how to deal with their emotions. And yeah, because everyone thinks like, I remember back then people were telling me, for example, stop raging, stop tilting. But what does it mean? It's my emotions, mate. Like, you know, it's like, you don't be yourself. Like it's the thing you did. It's the same, yeah. So it's just not possible. And you need to learn to accept the way you are, and prove it, and have the tools. And when you don't have the tools, it's tough for sure. And the chance we have as a CS player is at least if we go on the same path as mine, is that I got also so much a better person overall in my life, thanks to all of that, thanks to people that helped me during my career to be a better player, like in the way that I was. Because back then, when you were also telling me something about myself, like Dan, you are raging lately. I was getting crazy. I was getting mad at someone saying something bad about me. And I also learned now that, for example, if my teammate says something about me, we have a French say that we say there is no smoke without fire. So if someone feels something emotionally about me doing something bad, he's right. He has something right behind him, maybe not entirely right. But I need to look at myself and be better. And so that's the way I was thinking. And that's the way I'm thinking in my life. So I'm trying to be a better person overall with it.

Banks Yeah, I agree with what you're saying there as well, the smoke without fire, because there was many times if someone gave me some criticism, even if it's valuable, I just shut it down because it's like, you're just trying to close it out. You know, you don't want to hear that. You want to just be yourself. But everyone can learn. You can learn every day. You can be 40, 50, 60 years old and still be learning in everything you do.

apEX That's also why I'm here still. That's why I'm here still. I'm 32 and a half soon. And I have like...

Banks We're counting halves now, dad. You've got to that point where you're counting halves.

apEX But like, I'm still young. So when we're young, we still count half. So I'm trying to... I would still do that when I'm 80. I would say I'm 80 and a half. But yeah, that's why I also have this career. And back in 15, no one believed that apEX would be the most active player of the French scene and the one that will go until 2025 or whatever. No one would have bet that. No one. And that's why. But only myself, because I knew myself.

Banks You believed.

apEX Yeah, exactly.

Devilwalk No, but it's really cool going through that journey. And actually, kind of exploring that so late for you. I mean, you must have had so many struggles where you're like, what's wrong with myself? Why can I not do this? Do that?

apEX Yeah, exactly. But I tried to put myself in the box, you know? Like I was trying to put myself in the box. Yeah, exactly. And, okay, I'm just this guy. And I don't want to make trouble in the teams. Like in G2, was it enough of like Kenny had struggled, like he wanted to stop CS and blah, blah, blah, and Shox was the IGL and trying not easy because he wanted to change a lot and etc. And BK not happy with everything and putting his world into that. So if me also came and say, yeah, this is all bullshit, then, okay, that would have been too much of a mess.

Devilwalk So what was the first team you actually felt like, okay, I can be myself?

apEX Vitality in a way, Vitality from whenever he starts joining it.

Devilwalk Okay.

apEX He understood me better. He also understood me better also in the game, in the way I wanted to play. I was able to do whatever I wanted, not everything whatever I wanted, but you know what I felt also back then in G2, for example, is I was working harder than anyone else. Okay? And the example is I could see back then FurPrime, okay, this aggressive player, like playing a bit solo, etc. And that's also what I wanted to do in a way, like trying to be this sneaky boy. And I remember like-

Devilwalk The annoying guy.

apEX Yeah, exactly. Once again, that annoying guy. And I knew I could do it because I was reflecting about the game, I was working hard. I remember once, I asked Smith and Shocks, and I tried for one practice to be able to- And it doesn't work. So they told me, no, it's not going to be good. So now you go back to A site and you jump in the box. Everyone's off, like, you know. And because we had the way to play a bit passive at the beginning, having some aggro sometimes, and after someone, like, we go through and we re-take, like, the classic thing. So that's the thing they wanted to do. And they also, the problem with Frenchin is, like, the way they wanted to play was really structured, but all the time structured. Like, all the time, we, like, revenge, refrag, and all the time. And so this didn't go in, like, that plan, in that box, in a way, to play alone. So for them, it wasn't good. They were thinking that their CS was the best and they were not like other good CS to play. So that was also, like, the tough part for myself, to be myself and being, and while I remember, because in 2017, okay, I'm not top 20 in the world in the NHL TV, I'm top 21. I remember Tigris back then, he says, with 21, with 22, with 23. He happened twice to me that I'm 21 in 13 and in 17, he told me back then. And, but I was still proud because I was like, okay, I'm in the box, I can't do everything I can, but I'm still like top 21, which is not bad. So, in a way, I was still satisfied, but I knew I could do more. I actually knew I could be so much better. And that's why when I joined Vitality, I remember the first six months, seven months, I was actually good. We win trophies, we win stuff. I'm actually like 110 rating, 120. I have like a good, with IWU back then already, good stats, etc. And whenever Chucks joined it, it took more space on me and then I got a bit worse. And then I became a GL. But in a way, that's your question is, whenever I could feel it was more in Vitality.

Devilwalk I could play, I could be myself. You should have joined a Swedish team way earlier in the career.

apEX Maybe not enough structure back then. Exactly, you could see all the good players like Olof, Ekstral, whoever could do whatever they wanted. And me, I was in my box doing this.

Banks It's such a different brand of CS. I want to ask you, you have such individual skill and ability even now, looking back then at you. Was it always hard at times maybe where you were overshadowed by the other names? Because if I'm looking at that era of French CS, they would mention your name as the entry frag is what you could do, but it's like, Kenny, it's Shaq. So one time it was MBK. There was all the other players that even the French community was putting above you. Was that ever frustrating?

Devilwalk I mean, even half at some points.

Banks Yes, see?

apEX Scream.

Banks You weren't getting credit for what you were doing. And I guess it's without sounding rude to people who look at CS, but sometimes people are looking too much at the numbers or just the frags and not seeing what you were creating, the space you were creating, what you were doing.

apEX I will go on a different thing to answer that. First of all, I've never been a selfish person. So I was fine to make the other shines. I was fine to be the guy that runs first or jumps or Kenny or whatever. I was really fine with that. It was never been a problem for me. Of course, at some point, I would have loved to be a bit more selfish. To be a bit better player because I knew I could. But in a way, I would not be the player I am today and not having the career I have. So I'm actually fine being like maybe back then under those guys, under NBK, NDVD, under Shox, under Kenny, under Happy as well, under Scream. He was RPK as well in a way. I was fine with that. But now, getting the credit from like... Back then, Kenny didn't understand all I was doing for him, for example. He was not understanding that I was giving myself for him. In a way, I could see that he was just more talented than me. You know that, he was such a talented boy. One of the most talented players we may probably have had in Counter-Strike. But he was a lazy boy. So what I was feeling myself, it was just, okay, I'm going to work for him. I'm going to do what he doesn't do, like work on a few tricks and flash pick and telling him what to do when we're together. And it's going to be good. And it's going to help me to win trophies because what's the most important? At the end, it's to win trophies. And not long ago, on a foreign channel, he just said something like, the biggest mistake I've done is not trying to play more with apEX because he always wanted to do well for me. And I always try to do my best for him. And in a way, what's sad is whenever I joined it, I left, it was a bit of a drop down, you know? And people will never put that together, okay? But that's the truth. And I was doing a lot for him. But back then, it was a bit hard because he was not... he didn't know, he wasn't like... He didn't feel that I was helping him. He was just like, yeah, I'm a talented kid, that's it. But after like reflecting and getting older, because he's also 30 years old right now, he understood that, okay, I've done a lot for him and in a way I try to... even though Zywoo is a bit different, but also try to do the same with Zywoo. Yeah.

Banks And that on its own is impressive. So let's come looking at this then to the first Major. It was Cluj-Napoca, 2015 with EnVy. You beat Na'Vi in the final as well. You obviously mentioned that you beat Fnatic as well before the Devilwalk. You've gone by this one, right? You weren't there. Beat G2, which obviously a crazy team at the time. It's kind of like a start of super teams as it be. Yeah. How was that run for you? Like, was it something where you felt like that Major was in your hands from the beginning of the event? Was this one where you hit the ground and leveled up throughout it?

apEX If you know the story, we were about... We wanted to split after the event. Because...

Banks French special. French special.

apEX Exactly. I mean, that's me. But, like, NBK was not happy at all. Happy was not happy at all as well. People were not working enough. Just before the event, we went like true trophies though. They were still not happy. They wanted so much, and I understood that in a way, but they were too harsh, too harsh with everything. So bootcamp didn't go well at all. People were not happy. They wanted to make change already, et cetera. And we said, like, it's a last chance. If we win, we can keep going together. And if we lose, we're not going together. And I remember we beat Dinitas first game. We beat Na'Vi in group. And then we played Fnatic, beat them. It was actually a few maps, so it was not easy. Even though the third map was quite easy, overall, it was not the easiest game. And then we played G2, and that was actually the hardest game because they beat us on those two. We beat them on Inferno, but Inferno, at some point, it's getting overtime and overtime and overtime. And at some point, I think they are 21-18 for them. So one more run is GG. And I remember back then in Majors, in overtime, we had like breaks, like one minute or two minute breaks. It wasn't a heads, but it was made by CS. And it was full quiet, full quiet, TeamShake full quiet. And then we come back. I remember NBK taking the auto shotgun on Inferno. We win Inferno and then we win Cache and we go to Grand Final. And same against Na'Vi. Actually, one of our French YouTuber did a video about myself, like of my story. And I was watching the Train game. I think we were 14-10 down on T-Side Train, which is tough. And we come back 16-14.

Devilwalk It used to be like for people who don't know, that's like a 10-2.

apEX Yeah, 13-2. Yeah, it was so tough on Train. So yeah, we come back from that, and then we win a couple, so now we pick. And you remember that the third map was random between all three?

Devilwalk Yes, which was the craziest preparation for a game back then. It was like everyone sitting by one PC, by the Vito, and just praying, please not this map.

apEX And actually, we got unlucky because those two were the third map, and at that time, we were really bad with those two. And at the end, we win 2-0. So yeah, that was actually a good memory, but not the easiest run for sure. Like Paris was way easier for sure.

Banks Now, that's crazy, right? That obviously this French scene in general had gone through this change again and again.

Devilwalk I mean, it felt like you've played with pretty much every single French player. You could at this point.

apEX I didn't play, I never played with Smith. He's the only player I never played with because we were always replacing each other in a way.

Banks But you should see, we've got a document that we made with all the different lineups and players, and I'm just seeing it like, it's insane. So yeah, that's the only one we're missing.

apEX Yes, it's the only player I didn't play with. I played with Happy a few times back and forth, and BK not back and forth in a row. Kenny as well, playing together again and again, I think three times. Like, yeah, crazy, crazy stuff.

Banks We've even got the ones here with like Kiyoshima, obviously, but Devil Sixer, if you're looking at lesser known names. It's crazy what you've been through throughout this. Was it ever hard on any of these where you had a more personal connection to some of your teammates? Was it ever situations where players were getting removed? Because you spoke about the backstabbing and the problems, and this is something we've all heard about on many different podcasts, from the French scene, from other players, through their mouths. Was it ever one where you knew what's going to happen, and it's a friend of yours, and you're sat there like, I don't want this to happen, but like you said, it's better for my career if I stay here. You're trying to do what's right for you at the same time. Because I can imagine at times as this crossroads where it's an awful situation for you to be in when they're your friends as well as your teammates.

apEX Yeah, actually, the only moment I got removed was G2. And actually, I was really fine with it because this team was not working, the sub team. It wasn't working. I was sacrificing too much in a way. And the guy I was the closest was Kenny at that time. But our relationship went a bit down because he had like, he went to like a moment of his life where he didn't feel good and he didn't care about what happened around him. Like it was a bit selfish in a way because he wanted to stop CIS and he wanted to... He was a bit weird at that moment. So we were...

Banks Was this where he said he was depressed? Because I remember doing the interview with him.

apEX Yeah, it was a bit of everything. Like Kenny had a problem also in Titan, where he got depressed as well back then with a girl, and Seventeen, I don't remember. I think it was also a bit because of that. I was also with that. He is also really emotional, so it wasn't easy. We tried to talk to him, but it wasn't only about depression because it was also very big about their behavior and the way he was acting with the guys and with me. I remember at some point I had a letter that I told him because he was too much, and I had to tell him the truth for what I was thinking, etc. He always been like, Kenny was the guy back in 2012, 2011. Everyone was thinking he was a cheater, and I took it under my shoulder. He did his first LAN with me. We did a lot of stuff together. He was like my little brother in a way. At some point he stopped listening to me. He stopped like, yeah, he was a bit less of a good guy. Our relation got a bit worse. In a way, I was happy to leave that G2 lineup to create what I wanted after, because everything went bad in this G2 lineup.

Banks Yeah, it was kind of like a blessing in disguise, right? The whole G2 situation.

Devilwalk I mean, looking at it now, yeah.

apEX Yeah, I mean, once I will say a lot of stories about that, when I will be done, but...

Devilwalk You're writing a book?

apEX Yeah, I will probably do it, I promise. But I will go to jail because I will say too much stuff.

Devilwalk So, the career must be completely dead before you...

apEX Exactly. So, no, it was just too much of a mess and players also... The biggest problem back then anyway was players having the power. That was the biggest problem. How can you be above someone you play with? Where in the game, you're supposed to be all at the same height. And whenever we outside of the game, someone else decides for you. It's not possible.

Devilwalk Usually, it was really weird, but it was like a core of three people who decided everything. The other two was on the outside just having to...

apEX And then they get kicked to get new two players. Like a bit like the Coldzera Fur Farlun probably. Like, yeah, they changed FNX and then they took Farbs. And then they took Balls. And they had like this... They were deciding because they want two Majors, et cetera. And then they had like a lot of flows coming up and coming in and out in the team. But yeah, that was a lot like that. And that was not easy. For me, at least, that was not easy to be in that shit.

Banks Even though, like, if we're... So we're coming away from looking at what you did with Envy and then going into the G2 that you said obviously wasn't working, it was still three trophies despite it wasn't working. Like, is that down to the raw skill or was there times where it was better than it was bad?

apEX The only problem is, at that moment, this team was made to win everything, not to win three trophies. We won... And we didn't win the most important trophies. We won DreamHack Tour, EPL Season 6, 5, I don't remember.

Banks Five.

apEX Five, yeah, and DreamHack Marmo. So they were good tournaments, but they were not the biggest tournament. And yeah, so that was not the best one. In Majors, we failed. Like we did a group stage exit in Krakow and a quarter in Boston. So yeah, it was not enough. And as I said, this team was made to win more. And by the way, also, just to come back, like I was just thinking about it on the individual side. The only thing I miss and I would have loved is a shell TV MVP. I never got one. I was like maybe five or six times second in my career, but never got an MVP. Never. I was like...

Devilwalk Do you think you will get one in your current team?

apEX Lol.

Banks Rops is already wondering when he will get one. Let alone apEX.

apEX Imagine that Rops says himself, I'm never going to get an MVP. So apEX, the 32 years old guy, can say, I might get an MVP.

Banks If you have a few more performances like the Austin Major Grand Finals, you do that across the playoff. That's not out of the realm of possibility.

apEX Yeah, but I need to do that on the water.

Devilwalk Make a call to sacrifice them all the time.

apEX Actually, I said that this morning. I said, okay, guys, just to tell you, we won everything, so I'm fine with this year. So now the only thing I want is to play good myself, to be in the top 20, to be the oldest player to be in the top 20. So good luck, everyone. Zayou, you will have a lot of needs in PSOL, and you're going to sacrifice for me.

Banks Could it actually be possible? Let's look at it this way, right? With the year you guys are having, just say you win, the rest of the tournaments like you're doing, all the ones you enter, you personally, though, could be within the top 20.

apEX I heard, like, the iSheldTV guys talk in the iSheldTV Confirmed, and they were saying that it's already, like, tough for Mazy to be in, even with 1-0-8.

Banks Oh, really?

apEX Yes, yes. Really? They count really, like, as a... as a pure stat, like, in a way, and also, like, the impact you have on the server, like, not because you're a support that you make win rounds, but in a way that you are a multi-fragger or whatever. And me, I think the worst... They said the worst guy last year was IAM in 1-0-9, and I think I'm 1-0-3 this year. So, like, it's not enough. And I understand I'm fine with it. I mean, it's just a fun joke I have.

Banks You're winning IGL of the year anyway.

apEX I hope so. But the thing is, I won't deserve it. Like, actually, the fun part for me is I have a 1-0 run before playoff and 1-0-8 in playoff this year. So I'm better in playoff than group stage. But yeah, that's the way it is. Like, it's so good. I don't care being top 20. My hope is just my four players to be in the top 20. And we in the Anko of the year, close of the year, not entry because it don't exist. Team of the year and AVP of the year. And the coach of the year as well. So everything besides entry and push-out.

Devilwalk I think you're all on the path to that. Yeah, I hope you're all going to get some kind of award this year.

Banks It's a very special year. And we'll come on to that a bit later. Because let's start with this coming into Vitality, the first ever Vitality. Because this was a French organization, not just about them. They are French, born and bred, right? When that initial offer came to you, did you know the size of Vitality, the things they expected, like the level that this team was going to bring? Because obviously before Counter-Strike, I didn't know of them.

Devilwalk I think even apEX was the one that went to them.

apEX Yeah, okay. So a little story. I will explain the story because that's good. Like the pre-Den Rainer Culler is so much different than what it is. What happened back then is NBK and me got banned from G2. EnVyUs, they stopped the lineup a bit at the same time. And NBK and me, we talked together. And we said that we still want to play together. So we want also APK. Back then, he was like the best player in EnVyUs. He had a really good 2017 year. He worked on his struggle. He was really ready to work. And he was understanding that he will get lucky to still be here, etc. And then I said, yeah, we need to take this new prodigy. I'm pretty sure he's going to be pretty good. As I know, I want to play with him. And the fifth guy, I have no idea. But what's happening is MBK really wants, really, really wants. Back then, we also had like faculty. He was a coach.

Banks He was your first coach.

apEX First coach, yeah. And he really wanted that. For them, it was like the... But not being the IGL. And me back then, I said, I don't think it's a good idea. So I don't want to play with him.

Banks So MBK was IGL, right?

apEX Yes, exactly. So what happened is, like, MBK said, OK, I would prefer AP than you, so fine. Go away and we take AP. OK?

Banks Really?

apEX So they asked Jax to take my spot. And he was in 3D Max back then. And this retarded guy, one of my best friends, I love him.

Banks We all love Jax.

apEX My dumb friend said no, because he wanted to keep playing with the guys. So they came back to me and asked me again. But they had no hope back then. So anyway, it would not have been anything. But yeah, on the side, I was texting Neil, telling him it would be nice to arrive, etc. And I told him, yeah, because he was not sure if we wanted French, because he also heard about the French rumors, the French shuffles.

Banks Yeah, the rumors.

apEX I was also thinking of doing an international lineup back then with Woxic, Issa as well. ZywOo in the lineup. Yeah, it was a bit of everything. And in a way, it was the... I told him, yeah, I think maybe the French lineup would be better, etc. So yeah, I went back to them in Paris. Vitality was not that big back then. It was like mid-moons, mostly call of duty. They also had the League of Legends slots as well. But yeah, it was like a growing hog. And then I went to Paris on the old office. I had a meeting with the partnership manager and with Neo, one of the co-CEO. I mean, he's not CEO anymore, but whatever. And we talked together and everything started from there. I had to buy out me and BK from G2. I had to buy out ZywOo from AAA. And APK and AP were free. And we started like that.

Banks So I got to ask this then. Did you know Neo before? Like you just hit him a message and said, I want to talk to you about this. Like, how did this go? Because it's not often a player is the one making this magic happen.

apEX Yeah, I mean, we were texting each other on Twitter. He knew about my name, of course. I knew about Vitality and I told him in a way that I would be like really happy to play for French Hawk for the first time for a long time. I always wanted to do that and I always felt like that was a good shit to do and then magic happened in a way.

Banks That's brilliant. And obviously the key person within this, right? Ignoring all the other players of the history, is ZywOo. Because everyone knows what he was supposed to do, but were you that confident? Was it like you instantly knew from being able to see him how good he was going to be?

Devilwalk Everyone thought he was going to G2, I think, at that point, right?

apEX Yeah, but G2, they were also scared that he was cheating and the premise. And also, Zywoo wanted to finish his school before joining a team as well.

Banks Yes, always, I remember that.

apEX So what happened is, okay, this young guy, I will never expected him to be the best player in the world, like no way. But I remember the first time I practiced with him, I'm like, okay, this guy, I have nothing to teach him individually, like nothing. The guy knows everything.

Banks How old is he then? He's 16? 17.

apEX Like nothing to teach him. Like the guy, we can say whatever we want about other players, et cetera. But for me, his game sense is beyond everything. Like everyone says, so smart. Like, you know, Symbot is, I mean, he's known to be smart, but also flashy player. Big flick shots, et cetera. ZywOo will win the same clutches, but with maybe a bit less flick shots, in a way. A bit less flashy, but he will still win it. And like, he is like...

Devilwalk It will look easier.

apEX What?

Devilwalk It will look a lot easier when ZywOo does it.

apEX Yeah, I mean, everything. Like so much stuff I was like just watching and like, okay. But on the communication side, on the team play, et cetera, of course he had a lot, a lot to learn. But that was okay. I mean, that was not a problem in a way. I was like, yeah, this guy will be maybe one of the greatest French player, but I would never have imagined that he would have been like maybe the goat of Counter-Strike.

Devilwalk I remember playing ZywOo with a mix. It was like Kyoshima. I think ZywOo was playing. I was playing with some random like mix Swedish team. I think I was playing like maybe with Pronax and some other like Swedish guys. So just for fun. And I remember we were like 14-10 up on Overpass. And we are struggling to get rounds because ZywOo is sitting there with like 52 frags on the other side. And he eventually just destroys us and they win 16-14 on Overpass. Welcome to the world. Any peak you took, it didn't matter. You were changing timings in your head. You were changing everything. He's sitting there holding you, bang, headshot. Like you could do nothing.

apEX But that's why I understood he was not cheating because I could see he was smart. Like he wasn't like cheating. He was just being smart. Everything what he was doing was being smart.

Banks And doing it so calm as well. I remember when you were first watching him and the way you were describing of Simple and Zyruu, the way I say it then is that if I'm going to tell people you want to look at two great players you want to be, don't try and copy what Simple does. Copy the way Zyruu is playing because Simple will go over some of this insane stuff that sometimes doesn't make sense. But Zyruu is winning the rounds from understanding the situation, reading the situation, almost playing it like perfectly correctly in as many ways as possible.

apEX Yeah, but he understands everything faster than anyone. Like, where to look, of course, in the same skill, but in a way, of course, sometimes you're impressed by his skill, but it's not what makes Zyruu great, it's just what he does in the game and the decision he makes.

Devilwalk I think his rotation, sometimes in clutches, I see him just running straight away to like, I don't know, maybe it's a mirage or something, they are out, bomb is dropped. He's running from mid where he killed the bomb on A site, and all of a sudden he can run B, and he just reads the player and the T player goes CT to B, and Zywoo is already there. And it's just like, how do you make this read so cleanly and so instinctively?

apEX Because there are only two or three players in my career that, whenever I saw them with the confidence in the round, I knew they would win 1v2 or 1v3. I think Raps, Zywoo and Kenneas are the three that, okay, when I was watching it with the confidence, I just could see in the way they were making decisions. I'm like, okay, the round is won. I will win it, for sure.

Devilwalk It must be crazy. I mean, obviously, the two players that I've seen and spotted like up close and played with to some degree, Flusha was one of those players where I just, what is he thinking? How can he think like this and do what he's doing?

apEX Lifting his mouse.

Devilwalk Yeah, lifting his mouse. All of us had a little bit of that as well, but I think Flusha was more about outsmarting and trusting his instinct so much that it didn't even make sense when you try to deconstruct it.

apEX Yeah, for sure. He was that player. I remember that. I was also remembering, we played a lot also against him and you fucked me a few times.

Devilwalk Yeah, you have some moments.

apEX Yeah, exactly.

Banks Now, looking at this, you spoke about faculty being the first coach that was on that Vitality line up. He lasted just over a month and then ex-TAS comes in. Was this a bit of your doing? Was this him not just filling the bill as much? Like, what was it there?

apEX First of all, faculty was scared of planes. So he...

Banks You can't do that.

apEX Yeah, it's tough to do that job. And this guy is, we talk a bit less, but we used to talk a bit more back then. And he is a really, like... He's a passionate guy about Counter-Strike and football. He wrote books that are known actually in football. He had to become a great manager or something like that. He interviewed, like, Jose Mourinho and some, like, really insane. Amazing. Yeah, he's really, like, passionate about everything. But in a way, the way he is was not enough to be a coach. And also, like, that scale of playing was tough. I remember taking the plane with him for the announcement in Vitality, and that was a nightmare for him. So, yeah, it was a tough moment, but at least he helped us to grow the lineup. He is a great guy, so I can't go against everything he's done anyway. But, yeah, and when Ixtat came in, everything changed. Everything changed because we had... Back then, we were on a three-loser, like we had open qualifier for the minor, or for the closed qualifier of the minor back then, because it was open qualifier, closed qualifier, minor, major. And we lose three in a row, and we are on the fourth one, and the fourth one is there, and we go through on the last one. So yeah, I mean, for me, what I've said is Ixtaz and Zywoo saved the French scene for two, three more years. But at some point, that was not enough.

Banks Yeah.

Devilwalk We'll get to that point.

Banks We'll definitely get to that point, because before even that happens, right, obviously, Happy goes from the team. I believe he was the first one to go. You've got Alex coming in as well. And then, does Alex take over IGL straight away at that point?

apEX No, he doesn't.

Banks So still a bit of MBK.

Devilwalk Yeah, I thought it was.

Banks It's still MBK. It's still MBK.

apEX Yes, it's still MBK for like four months, I think, something like that.

Banks And then there's just the decision to change IGL or MBK doesn't want to do it.

apEX Once again, even though Alex is not entirely French, he is half French for sure because of all the mess we had. No, okay, the problem we have is, okay, at some point what we do on T side is not good enough. Like the way MBK is going is not good enough back then. So what we decide is Alex taking off T side and MBK on CT side. And MBK was still the captain, but they were like in a way fighting to each other. Like, who wants to be the captain or not? And that was the toughest part. They were like, no, it's me, the captain, it can't be you, you're like that. But no, but you, you can't be, okay, like it was a mess. But that's the moment where both started to be, to be IG on the side that we started to get better. Because whenever we did that, we had like a three weeks or a month preparation with a boot camp to go to Submit, we win CS Submit, we lose Drew McDallas in quarter to Furia, and then we go to ECS finals in London and we win them. We win like ECS final. Yeah, at that moment, the team is great and I remember like during that time between ECS and we have Cologne, Remy, he starts calling me and tell me, okay, Alex wants to bench himself. I'm like, what? What the fuck? He starts to get good result and this happens. Yeah, because NBK didn't want to leave the leadership and for him, I mean, the captain and he was not a good captain, so he wanted to just bench himself and he didn't feel good to be in the team and et cetera. So we tried both him and me, I mean, Xtaz and me to try to do everything. So whenever we arrived in Cologne, Xtaz came and said, okay, no, we don't have captain anymore. You're just two IGLs, so we do it without captain. We go to the Cologne final, we lose to Liquid, that Liquid that was like almost unbeatable. And yeah, we go to ESEA, to qualify for EPIDAFTOR in Chicago. And Remi still say to Alex that let's fight until the end of the year, let's try to give our best, etc. And then we go to the Starladder Major and everything falls apart in a way, like the way people are with each other. And Alex is really done with the NBK, in a way, he says it's him or me, and we have to make a decision. And we decide to, I mean, the coach decides to bench NBK to bring Shox. And that's what I said before. I think when you look at my stats of the first part of the year, until Shox joins, I'm really like a good, I think I have one 10, one 11 rating. I'm pretty sure I would have been a top 20 players that year. If we keep like that, of course. I mean, but whenever Shox join, I was actually against Shox joining. Because we went away from all those problems, and Shox was also like a, we know as a princess, you know, like I said, D.Va, Shox, et cetera. And I knew the team will be different. I knew I would have like less space and I couldn't be myself as much as I could. And for the first time in my career, I could find like a way to play CS and enjoying it, and not having too much problem on that area. And whenever I joined it, I dropped down. At least our result didn't drop down that much.

Devilwalk But did you have to change like position, spots, everything to kind of suit that Shox change?

apEX A bit, yeah, a bit in a way. I had to change positions. I was actually the lurker on overpass, on B. Really?

Devilwalk But to be fair, that is a very aggressive role.

apEX Exactly. So I liked it, you know, and I was good at it. And I was actually my favorite. But whenever he joined it, they wanted to give him the spot because it was Shox, you know. It was Shox. And yeah, I got to remove everything. And also like in the space in the game, not only in my position, but in the way he calls. And also like the problem started between Alex and Shox after that. Of course, it was just a trade. So that was pretty rough, to be honest. Like Alex was, I thought finally I could find an IGL that was like me, hard-working, understanding also, because he was an entry fighter before. I was actually like a role model for Alex before he joined Vitality. For him, he was like watching my demos and feeling like, okay, that was the way he wanted to play, et cetera. And also whenever he joined it, he was actually really good. I was actually loving, was one of my best IGL for a couple of months. And then it started to go down where he worked a bit less. It was like not listening to feedbacks we gave him. Like I was not happy on certain things and he didn't listen to me. And actually, I never said it in an interview, but he told me a phrase, a sentence that I will always remember. I'm not sure when it was, but he said it not only once. I was saying something to him. He said, you will not, you don't understand because you will never be an IGL. Oh, short fired.

Devilwalk Sounds like a very British comment, to be fair. Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

apEX It's been a friendly fire.

Banks It's terrible now.

apEX But then he told me that sentence. And I was...

Devilwalk Did you ever send him a message back?

Banks No, we still...

apEX Actually, we saw each other last year. And he was in Wembley for Blast Finals in London. But no, no beef. I mean, we had good times and etc. And you know, in CS and everything, like everything goes wrong sometimes. And he was actually... He wasn't a bad spiral in a way. He was just... He was happy to succeed. And I was happy as well. And I was the first one to be happy to succeed. But in a way, you know, like sometimes he was just thinking he was too much of a... Like for me, what's important in CS is always feel you... You can't feel un-replaceable. You always have to feel... My goal is to be un-replaceable, but the next day I can be replaceable. You know what I mean? So for me, like of course right now, if we talk right now, Vitality can't change me. But tomorrow, you know, sure. So I need to work my way to be un-replaceable. And that was always been in my head, this sentence. So when I see Alex, it's a bit what he didn't follow. At some point, he was like, for sure, like such an important piece of the team and etc. But like he changed in a bad way, unfortunately.

Banks Can I ask this, then, with Alex's leaving? Because the story that came out right was him leaving because he didn't want to do the travel and stuff. Was that false?

apEX It's all true. It's all true.

Banks OK.

apEX So what's happened for Alex is, yeah, he wanted to be a pro. He worked his ass off, etc. But Alex also had a stomach pain. I don't know what exactly-

Devilwalk It's like similar to Gattrite?

apEX Exactly. I think it's something a bit similar. So of course, when you're a professional player, I think that was really tough. Like he went a lot of toilets before games, he had to go and everything went really bad on that side. So yeah, it was like a bit up and down and sometimes really done. So this affected him a lot, which makes sense. But then also you had like, of course, the travel, because 2019 was probably the hardest year I have had. Yeah, it was crazy. Because also us, when we started the year, we were no one. So we did all the qualifiers, et cetera. But we qualified to everything. We accepted every invite. And we arrived to a point where we accepted too much. But we had to go. So yeah, it was a really difficult year. So we didn't want to leave that again.

Devilwalk I'll just add, back then, was it still like, okay, some of the tournaments were really hard on, you do not leave the booth until the game is over on some tournaments. You couldn't even go to a bathroom break between maps at some tournaments if the schedule was like that.

apEX Back then, for example, ESWC was like that. But I don't remember that in 2019. I don't think so. It was like that. I don't think so. But it was just too much trouble. And also, one of the two is also, he met his first, like, I think, really girlfriend and he still is with her. So I guess it was worth it. And I'm really happy for him on that side. And I think this also went like in a way to to to feel a bit also not wanting to to stay. And also on our side, we wanted him to kick him because he was not doing enough. It was like, I remember like a little anecdote in Blast. The first black groups we had on LAN. So that was in London. Yes.

Banks Yeah, I was there.

apEX Yeah, the first one there. And Alex, at some point we searched for Alex everywhere. And one of the security there, he said, I took about like this guy. He said, oh, he's there with his girlfriend. And it was like not being with us, being with his girlfriend. So everything fall apart. And he was just, and also we had a performance team that was working with us and he was not happy with them. So we had no choice, even though he wanted to leave it away, even though he didn't want to live at that time, we, I say we because it's Vitality, but we decided to, we will have to bench him anyway. So that's like the true story behind it.

Banks Okay. And then the crazy thing was with this, where he said, because obviously now we know more, you've told the other truth of the other side. When I looked at it, it was like, he went because of no travel and then we had COVID. COVID literally hit the next few months later and I'm thinking, this is just the most unlucky crossover, but it sounds like it would have happened anyway.

apEX Exactly.

Banks Anyway, so it doesn't matter.

apEX That's what it was like in the statement. In the statement, that was what was written, but that was not completely the truth. And it's the case on a lot of statements anyway.

Devilwalk Yes.

Banks Yeah. Those things are a little bit different in there.

apEX Yeah, exactly.

Banks All right. And then, so this is the point where I want to understand, what did the conversation look like for you to then take over IGL? And obviously, this is a massive step up for you. Was part of this fire the fact that he said you'd never be IGL?

apEX I'm not an ego guy.

Devilwalk I'm not proving it wrong.

Banks I will do it.

apEX Not really, not really. No, yeah. Okay, when we bench him in a way, I know it will maybe will be my time to shine. I know that Ixtas will not ask shocks, because emotionally he was... In the emotion, I'm tough as well, but it's a different way from shocks. It will be too bad. So I know already that it might be me, but I hide it in myself. I'm like, yeah, maybe, but let's see or whatever. And whenever it arrives, because that's the thing, whenever it arrives, Remy asked me, I think Dan, it's your time to shine.

Banks Okay.

apEX And I don't want to jump into it straight away. I say, okay, leave me two, three days. I need to reflect about it. I don't want to make a quick whatever. And that with everything happened also with, I lost a bit of confidence on the second half of the, on 2019 as I told you as individual. So I'm like, maybe, maybe it's my time to do that. Maybe it's my time to be a Nigel. And so yeah, I said, okay, I'm trying it. Let's see in six months where we are, because I didn't want to be like the guy trying it forever and not succeeding. I'm like, maybe, and then maybe I'm going to do something else and that's life. But I want to be able to start and see how it goes.

Devilwalk Did you reflect back on any of the, like even the stories you've told today where you were like sitting with Kenny, you're fixing stuff, how to play and how to support and help. Do you feel like these are references that you brought, okay, I can do this? Because it sounds very similar to the job that you will eventually be doing.

apEX Yeah, also what we were not saying since the beginning is I've always been like a secondary leader in all my teams, always been the guy trying to up and create strategies on the side and coming and say, I have a new strat and a new flash. I've always been really good with nades. A little anecdote that back in 2010-11, when we talked about winning my first even with 3D Max against Hero Games, I skipped school to create strat with my Agile. So I got a server on source and I create new strat on new maps, etc.

Devilwalk There was no YouTube videos back then.

apEX It was all like, oh, this smoke is nice. You have to create it by yourself. So yeah, I always love the strats. And so during all my years, I was that. And in a way, for example, in 2014 and 2013, when I'm in the LDLC and we start to get better and better, like credit comes on AP on strat, but I know I'm creating half of them as well with him, because I love that. I love doing it. We were really good at doing it with each other. So it's always been a thing. So yeah, when I arrive, I know like, my first thing was, I always said it in interviews, but the first thing when I become the Agile, I can't sleep for like two weeks. I fall asleep at eight in the morning because I'm thinking too much of what I want to do, and I'm taking my phone, going on the notes, say, okay, this track will be nice, what I could do, blah, blah. It was a mess in my head. The first time ever, it was such a mess. That was really over the top.

Devilwalk You put that pressure on yourself, I imagine. Yes, of course. Like, I have to do something great.

apEX I want to be good. I want to be good, and as we said, like about the giving up, and no, I'm going to give my best to be the best version I can. Maybe it's not good for me. Maybe it's not for me. You never know. Yeah. But I need to try my best. I need to be like, for me, no regrets. That's the most important. No regrets. So that's the way I start to be the IGL and trying to find a way to be good.

Banks Where does this mentality come from? Does it come from before you were a CS player, from parents, maybe upbringing or something as well?

apEX My mother.

Banks Okay.

apEX My mother is a hardworking person, and my grandmother as well. The first thing I would say to my grandmother, because she's not there anymore. It's been seven years she died. I mean, it's a normal path for a human being, I would say.

Banks As we get older, sadly, yes.

apEX Exactly. But my grandmother lived in the Second World War, and as we are from the northeast of France, we were taken by the Germans. So she lived a really rough life, lost parents at nine years old, a lot of crazy stuff that I would maybe never live. So in a way, my grandmother taught me to hard working because she had also 10 children and 10 kids. So whenever it ended, at 41 years old, she came back to work because she had to feed the family as well. So she was just like a powerful woman like you'd never seen in a way. She was like just a crazy woman that I was looking at. I was listening to her stories during the Second World War where she had to steal to hit, she has to steal the bread, etc. where my life is easy, etc. So in a way, I was like, whenever I'm complaining about stuff, I'm thinking about my grandmother. I'm like, no way you can't complain because you live a good life. So that's the first part of it. And then my mother taught me to be a hard worker. She at some point in her life, she had to work where she was helping my old stepfather and she had a whole job. She was working probably within 80 and 100 hours per week, past two weeks. You know, I was too much. It is fine. Exactly.

Devilwalk Everyone else in the world is talking weekly or monthly hours.

apEX Exactly.

Devilwalk We have two weeks, two weeks.

apEX It's two weeks, stop one week. So yeah, and so, and yeah, she always told me you have everything by work and by hard working. And so I became like that thanks to her. It's just like the way I was educated. So yeah, it comes from her for sure.

Banks What great examples, which obviously have helped you, shape you, grind through all of this, why you've never given up on it.

apEX My behavior as well. It's my mother.

Devilwalk Yeah.

apEX It's my mother.

Devilwalk She's as emotional as you are.

apEX Yes, she's really emotional. Yeah, she's really, really emotional. Like if she can cry and maybe laugh within five minutes.

Banks It's very nice to learn this and understand where it comes from in it. And I guess you have such a close relationship with your mom now.

apEX Yes, really close. Yeah. In France, we say, yeah, dogs don't make cats, you know. So it means that just, yeah, you are the son of your parents.

Banks Yeah.

Devilwalk It's like the apple don't fall far from the tree.

apEX Yeah, exactly.

Banks Exactly. Exactly. All right. So, sorry. No, go.

apEX No, I just said that's the French way to say it.

Banks Yeah. Yeah. I like these little differences between the French and the English ways of doing it. We enjoy this. I also want to say this, right? You use the word mate a lot, but you did this before you had Messi on the team as well. So you've taken a bit of British into your.

apEX I'm not sure I did it too much before. I don't think so.

Banks I just remember you using it for such a long time now. Maybe it was just the time that Messi was there.

apEX Actually, maybe. I don't know. I don't remember when I started. I have a good memory, but maybe not for that. So I couldn't fell ass because I'm watching also some TV shows.

Devilwalk So it's just a funny thing to say. It's like when you hear a British person say water is like, this is something we say, water, water.

Banks Yeah, I have to get my water. That's it, at all times. All right, so coming back on to the CS side, I'm going to look at the end of, obviously, you've got into IGL mode, right? And this is basically the last good French team we're going to get on the very elite level until obviously we come to more recent times. But you guys were trying to save things here because Misuta, Kyojin, Navira is the sixth man at one point as well. You're going through COVID and all this stuff. And you were, I remember in 2021, right, you were always battling against Na'Vi, like...

apEX I'm losing. It's not battling. It's always losing to Na'Vi.

Banks I didn't want to say just losing, but yeah, it was a lot of these ex-E interviews I was doing with you at this point. And it was a lot of struggles. But how much of do you think it plays into the fact that the younger talent wasn't up to scratch for what you guys needed? What does it come down to as why you weren't able to be there? Because obviously, eventually, it moves away completely from the French teams.

apEX Yeah, to start with, I think everyone takes COVID lightly, but for me, it's a really important moment. It's where I start to be the ideal. That's why I also wanted to do really well, because if I didn't do well in COVID as the first time at IGL, I would not have continued as IGL. So for me, COVID moment is really important. And in a way, with this lineup, I'm not the one you talked about before, with Risuta, LPL, Sharks, and ZywOo, we arrived to be the best team in the world. We did 6th final in 2020, and we won some, et cetera. So for me, just to tell you, it's a really important moment of the beginning of my career as IGL. But then, yeah, we arrived in 2021. LPK is starting to play worse and not really... Like, it doesn't work to play anymore. It's too much for him. He's tired of everything. So we have to replace him. And back then, actually, I said it, but we do a really huge mistake to take Kyojin because Vitality don't have much money. It's a COVID moment. Not many hoaxes have, but we could get a better player than Kyojin at that moment. It's not his fault, but he had no experience in Tier 2 and Tier 3 already. So how could he jump in Tier 1 in one of the best teams in the world? You know, that was a mistake.

Devilwalk I mean, I even remember you were playing, we were godsent at the time. I was coaching them. I remember even playing you guys on like, I think ESL Pro League or something like this. We were playing Nuke and I think every single demo I checked, it was just, let's go inside. Kyojin is holding inside.

apEX Exactly.

Devilwalk He was not ready to hold inside against like, Tier 1 executes or stuff like this.

apEX I was getting crazy. I was getting crazy. Like, I was like, what the hell is going on? So as you said, like, and when you think about, yeah, we lost the Na'Vi, but with this lineup, what could we have done? We played one of the prime Na'Vi, on the best Na'Vi lineup. Like, individually, perfecto, the best anchor, really solid, people kill on the left, really passive, but really good, simple prime 2021, electronic top five in the world, beats the young guy destroying everyone.

Banks Headshots left, right, center.

apEX And us in a way, of course, we have ZywOo, really good. Me, I think I'm still decent, and they have, of course, Boombl4, that is also a good IGL and a decent individual player. But yeah, we have, if we take players one by one, if we take like Mizutara against electronic, Kyojin against Perifecto, electronic beat against Shox that time, you know? Of course, we are behind.

Devilwalk It's a pretty huge difference, actually.

apEX I remember, you know, we were in Ashley TV Awards at the end of 22 and 3, and I was talking with that to electronic. And I say, my mates, we talked about that that year. I'm like, but what could we have done? Like, I remember doing great calls. We go on the bomb sites where there is only one player, and we lose three guys. Like, you know, sometimes you can't do better. I mean, you know, I was reflecting, and we didn't have just the right players to do it. And still at the Majors, when we play them, it's a close game, it's 16-11, 16-13. Like, you know, and we could have one nuke at that one. But yeah, we lost maybe seven, six times in a row in 21-1. But I would like...

Devilwalk That's the fun part about Counter-Strike. You can make the perfect call, and you can get absolutely smashed.

apEX And the other way as well. You can make the worst call, I remember. We go on the bomb sites, there are three or four, and we kill all of them. It's not a good call from me, but you guys just stepped up. So that's it. I was doing a basketball, but yeah, that's for sure. And this Na'Vi was just so much better than us. That's it. We couldn't just fight against them. We tried, but we just couldn't. They were just smarter, better individually, better team, everything.

Banks And then obviously we get towards the... I don't know, we'll probably go to the bit where Xtaz leaves, right? Yeah. Because if you remember, it was me and you at the World Final.

apEX Yeah, I remember pretty well.

Banks Yeah, your memory is good, but I even watched this clip back before we did the interview, and I just remember seeing your face and how you go after... I think I just kind of stopped the interview. I just gave you like two quick questions. I saw how emotional you are and let you go with it. But why was that such a painful... Because obviously we knew what was coming, right? The organization had told you, we're not being French anymore, right? There was no more of this and it wasn't like you had a choice in it. But there was big changes coming. It was all very public about what was happening. But it was such an emotional moment for you. Can you just explain to me the feelings of it and why it was so painful of knowing what was coming? Because obviously most people will look at it and say, well, look, they had so many second places. They were fighting very well. But obviously, it doesn't end in the trophies.

Devilwalk How long before did you guys know, like in the team, that this change was coming?

apEX We didn't know. We knew it after the Major. Whenever the Major ended.

Banks After Stockholm?

apEX Yeah. Nio came in Sikom, our boss, and told us the next day.

Banks But then you had like six months of playing still with that team, right?

apEX No, no, no, six months. No, no, it was a Major was in October, November. It was October and November.

Banks Yeah, it wasn't some, it wasn't some Major. We just had one Major that year.

apEX Yeah, exactly. We did only three tournaments after that. In a row, by the way. We did a month all together in a row to finish the season. But yeah, first of all, why I went crying? Because I'm emotional. So it got both ways. Sometimes I'm really mad. Sometimes I'm really happy. Sometimes I'm really sad. That's just the way I am. And even when I'm in Counter-Strike, I think in life I'm less like that. But in Counter-Strike, I'm a lot like that. And yeah, I was sad that everything was ending. And actually, I also cried when Zonic left, even though it's not public. But that's something on our last talk. Because first of all, Ixtaz was like the guy that was coaching our team for three years. I was really close with him. He helped me to be the IGL I am today. He helped me a lot at the beginning to just make me grow. And he's part of my success as well, for sure. So, yeah, I got a lot of emotional. He was ahead of an era, everything. I think it was just I was maybe underling it for a long time. And that one was just too much at that moment. Yeah.

Banks Yeah. And obviously, this marked the end of the last top tier French team as well. Was that something you were sad about, maybe took more personally being the IGL, that you couldn't make it work with the full French team?

apEX As well, yeah. I tried and I just tried to give my best, but couldn't make it. And I remember a little thing about we had the end of like our last tournament, I think we had the restaurant, we just drinking a last drink together with all the whole team. And we see Kiergene is really sad in a way, because he's the only one in the team that didn't find a project. Shox was already like close to Liquid signing at the time. Xtise was really close with G2 signing. So we were all good for the next year, you know, but him. So, and I told him, Descendant, I said, I know it's painful, but anyway, it was too early for you. That's for sure. But you need to be happy that happened and not be unhappy that it stops, you know. So I just told him, like, yeah, you lived a fantastic moment, and that's what you have to remember. Not the ending, but that happened. And yeah, and I just remember that moment. And yeah, we couldn't just figure it out. We didn't have the right players to be able to, to not waste ZywOo's talent as well. Yeah. That was also important. We are all the haters that tell me I'm fucking a ZywOo carrier because I read, I read that a lot.

Banks So Vitality make this decision, right? It's the end of the French team. And then we go into new Vitality, which is it says like we add the Astralis trio, but it's only Magisk and Dupreeh. So Masuda stays, you stay and ZywOo stays, right? Magisk and Dupreeh come in, Zonic comes in. But it took a while for you guys to really get going. Yeah, it was I fought six months off my memory. But you're saying a year.

Devilwalk You guys were hyped. You were really hyped. Yeah, it was like really hyped.

Banks We fought ZywOo, Zonic, apEX, all this new magic we expected to happen. Dupreeh and Magisk come in as well.

apEX Zero magic.

Banks How hard was that transition from the inside?

Devilwalk Because I can imagine also like them coming with a new kind of way of playing, how they are comfortable.

apEX So the first thing is also we didn't mention is Lars as well. Yeah, sorry.

Banks I can't forget that.

apEX But the problem we had is on the first year, Lars didn't come to that many tournaments. In his contract, it was like a bit different. He couldn't, he had like job on the side as well. It was like he was doing most stuff, so he couldn't attend every tournament. So the first thing that's fucked us and that's like some unlucky thing in life is at the really beginning, Zonic lost his mother. And that was a really painful moment for him, really painful. I remember I think for a couple of months after, he was still lost. I mean he lost like someone that he never expected to lose. For him, she was probably a pillar in his life and helping him on a lot of stuff. And I remember we went bootcamp in the first tournament online because he was blast groups at that time. And he just announces that he lost his mother. And yeah, so this is the first thing that really didn't help us to get better. Second thing is the roles. We didn't have a Lurker back then. We all know Magisk is not a Lurker, he's more of an aggressive player. So we really needed that Lurker and like this Mizuta and Dupreeh position when all the time. So yeah, so that's where it started. So the first six months were a pure disaster. One playoff in the world six months when we go to final and we lose to who? Navi. Here we go again. So yeah, that was really difficult. And that's the moment we decide to bring up Springs because we really needed a Lurker at that moment. And he was like the upcoming star from ENCE, like being a really good Lurker, like a really good passive player, etc. So and that's also the time where Zonic wants to put me in anchor roles. Not all of them, but on Nuke I was ramped and I was B and Mirage. So that was also a tough moment for me because...

Banks And that's not the way you want to call, right?

apEX Yeah, I'm not a good...

Devilwalk It is really hard to be jumping B apps and calling C to size, I can tell you that. Exactly. You have no control of what's happening at all.

apEX And also I'm a really like bad passive player. I never played it in my wall carriers. For me, that was really difficult. I would be better, for example, on A mirage and on inner nuke than ramp and there.

Devilwalk But A mirage, you can at least leave A and join comms and do stuff like this.

apEX And so many positions as well. On B mirage, you need to jump, they come once per side and you can't call as well. I mean, everything is really rough there. For me, I think it was rough. And I didn't allow myself to do anything else. Yeah, that was tough. And we began spings, it starts to be okay. We win the first trophy together in EPL. We actually, it's the tournament before the major. And at the major, we struggle, but we were really close to go. I mean, for me, we just lose the most part game where we 8-0 up on mirage on T side. And we lose 1917. It was a 1-1 game where first game we played Na'Vi. They were one of the best team in the world. We lose in 16-14. Then we beat FaZe, that was the best team in 2022. And then we arrived to the most part and we should have beat them and beat the two-run pool. We go to 1-2, we lose two runs in one of a time in 16-14 and GG. And our season was a big disaster. We, as you said, the problem we had, the biggest problem we had is we tried to play the Vitality style at the beginning. Like my style. But it didn't work out. Like the dance were not like that. Like they were, it was really more structured than it was in Astralis because with Kiergen and Mizutai, it really had to go really structured. And they didn't like it. Also Dupreeh, for me, he's not a pure entry fragger. He's not a flamzy. Like he likes to entry in the...

Devilwalk It's like a lurky entry.

apEX Yeah, he likes to be like Nico. He entries like map control, but he will not go first on like when you finish on the bomb site. Except you research. But like with Nathan running, he doesn't do that. So he was also a style I didn't know before as IGL. I was still a new IGL anyway. I was not a new IGL, but I played myself for two years with French and English was fine, but the worst was probably to find our way.

Devilwalk There must have been a really tough challenge because you must start questioning yourself. Am I thinking counter-strike correctly? What am I supposed to switch up?

apEX I tried my best. I remember Zoniq told me that I was working too much. I was trying my best to find out what we could do. What was the problem for us? I couldn't find it. I had no idea. And not to put because it was also my bad, but that year, to be fully honest, the two Danes were giving a bit less than they were supposed to do. They were a bit more like, you're lazy in a way. They were like, we are... Because I think in Australia, they were working, but they were working always in the same way and they knew what to do. And there, they had to give more effort in the game. It was important to give more, because if they were a first intentional team, they had to help me in some point, and they didn't do it. So, yeah, everything was pretty bad. But what's crazy for me is that you're on HLTV, on the team of the year with top nine. But who is the second best player in the world?

Banks Zairo. Yeah. He was putting up numbers.

apEX Yes, exactly.

Banks Numbers every single time.

apEX Well, that year we're like maybe should have been a Nico or Shiro. I don't remember who could have been second.

Devilwalk No.

apEX But yeah, for me, all like Zairo. But yeah, Zairo was still second. But yeah, that year is the most difficult year I had in term of results and not understanding why everything went forward.

Banks And the thing is, right, we obviously, there were so much expectations for this lineup, but I also want to touch on you, Spence, you said about English, a lot of conversation was around Zairo getting adjusted to English. How was it in the set? Was it as hard as they were making out? Was he struggling more with that?

apEX Actually, I think you don't have to speak really good English to be a CSP international team on a lot of stuff and mostly for Zairo. So what Zonic was saying is like, say the least you can and whenever we dead, we speak for you. So sometimes I was actually a bit mad that he was not talking and I was dying on the side because he was not talking. But that was a bit of Zonic rule. And after actually when he got more fluent and everything got easier, I said, yeah, but now he needs to communicate properly. But yeah, that was the idea at the beginning and to let him shine as an individual and pick the least he could.

Banks Okay. All right. So from here, Depree is gone as well. I'm just going to look down there.

apEX No, before, no, because we have Paris still. We have Paris before.

Banks Oh yeah, we have Paris before that.

apEX 2023, we start the year with Los. So Los, this year, like in 2023, okay, he comes to Avery events. So he's going to be there at Avery events. So it's a big, also good thing for us.

Banks So this is like a contractual change, it's an improvement for the team to help you guys get on track.

apEX Exactly. And I remember we have a bootcamp without PC, something that Los is doing just to put the plan in the year. And we talk and we all want to do so much better. We know we really fucked up that year and we really want to show what we capable of and etc. So at that moment, everyone starts to work hard. Like not the way they did in 2022. And start like blast groups, we qualify for the LANs, I think. Or maybe not, actually, I don't remember. But I think we do. Then we go to final, to Katowice. We go through the group stage. So second, like the third playoff together. And we do this big choke against Liquid where we trap 0 up on overpass and we lose the whole game. So yeah, that was a tough one. But that was, like, you know, then he said it a lot, like the trust process. We were on the learning stage. We came from so down in 2022 that we had to go through hard stuff while still working hard. Then I remember we were supposed to win that game because when we trap 0 and you choke, you're supposed to win. And then we go to EPL groups where we go with Jax. And that's actually a turning point for us where we are, Jupri is going to be a dad, so we let him the time to just go home and take care of his girlfriend, wife and his new kid. And we bring up Jax and I remember saying to Zanik, I said, I know Jax is a good friend of mine, let me call the way I want. And I know I'm going to make it work because I know how to use him. So in a way, we played only fast. And I was using good nades for him and him being a pure entry fragger. Actually, he ended the group stage with like 19 rating or 120, which is really good. We also did one of the best comebacks of all time against FaZe, 114 down on an Abyss, doing 14-1 on the second side and winning it in all time. I never expected to win that game. And then, yeah, of course, Jupri comes back and we have a talk online where in a way, finally, we understand each other. Even though we talked a lot in a way, and they didn't understand what I really wanted. What I really wanted is we're going to play Explosion sometime, and what I need for my entry is to go first and run with W. I can do it sometime, but we need to do it together. I need that from you, and whenever you're in map control, you have more freedom. But whenever I ask for an execute, you need to go first. You need to go first for the rest. And we understood each other in that way, and everything started to get better. And fortunately, in this, again, in playoff, we play ENCE. I think we fought in 10-up or something like that. Or maybe not, but we lose in 6-14 on the third map against ENCE, where we should never have lost once again. Was this like the Vertigo or something like this? Yeah, exactly. It's the Vertigo game.

Devilwalk This was a crazy Vertigo game.

apEX Exactly, and Nertz is having a live game where he smoked on the bomb site and someone is really close to defuse, and he sees someone go on the right, he just shoots one tap into smoke, he one-taps the guy defusing, and then he flicks the other guy like he was in a way full-luck, etc. But we lose that game. Then it gets to a point where it's getting too much. We're in the practice room saying to each other, I remember Drupi saying, yeah, we're not supposed to lose that game. He's right. We're fucking not supposed to lose that game. And it's getting too much in a way, like two in a row, it's so fucking bullshit. But like the main goal is privacy, we still have to work hard to get into it. And we go to RMR, we get to Legend Stage, we go Rio, and we get our title, and then we go to privacy and we win it.

Banks And let's look at this, right? So the last change of him coming in, did that like coming in for more events, did that also make this conversation you spoke about with Dupree easier to have? Like, did that help you in some ways? Because obviously you spoke about Lars developing you earlier when we were talking. But like, how much did that make this possible, these moments possible? Yeah, I mean, because I think a lot of people, by the way, from a fan perspective, just think sometimes performance coaches are overhyped or they're just, they don't know the naffle, they're not doing it like, explain to us how actual beneficial in real world this works for you.

apEX They explain you with the right words and with the right experience, how you need to deal with stuff, with your emotions, with...

Devilwalk It's also about understanding each other's points of view.

apEX Exactly, listening to each other and being the guy between and trying to say, yeah, but this guy is not wrong and you need to listen to him and et cetera. Just putting your mind to help the others and also being a better teammate and being ready also to face everything. I remember for Dupree, the struggle, for example, was he always been a star in a way. Even though he was an entry, he was a star in Astralis. So now what we ask him to do is stop being like the star you were. Now we need you to sacrifice for the team. What last it is to help switching from being one of the best rifle of all time at some point to like a, the stats will be less good but you need still to be happy in your life about that. That's the way he helped us. The way he helped, for example, Dupree in that case.

Banks That's a big one. That's a very big one.

Devilwalk I think it's interesting because I think a lot of people haven't been and gone through this kind of conversation. I mean, it sounds so stupid and simple, like just solve it and talk, but it really isn't. Like it is about like trying to figure out, okay, these things he doesn't like because of this reason. How can we get away with this reason so we still can do it?

apEX And accepting also is a way.

Devilwalk Yeah.

apEX Accepting.

Devilwalk And it is so valuable because you don't have that much time as people think when you are a professional gamer, like grinding. You have so many other problems. Trust me, you're trying to figure out that you don't have the time to smooch talk and figure everything out in these kinds of conversations. You just want it to happen now because we have other stuff to focus on.

apEX Exactly.

Devilwalk You're in that stressed mode.

apEX Yeah, it's a new problem. We are a bit arrived in two days as well. You know, it's always the same.

Banks And there was also this whole conversation around you guys. Your idea was to peak for the major, for Paris Major. How does the... had you ever done that before, this journey of trying to peak at the right time? Was this a brand new thing with Lars being there from the beginning of the year?

apEX No, it was a new thing for me, totally new thing. I really remember that bootcamp with our PC when we talked about Paris, and we know, in a way, we say, okay, Paris is our last chance to shine. Paris is the last chance. Vitality tell us, you have until Paris, we won't change the lineup, but you need to show us something great there. Winning or go to final, I don't know. So, what's happening is we talk together, and I remember Magix saying, just saying, I will be glad to go in quarterfinal through sugar stage. And you know, the major is in my country. I'm like, and I tell him, do you think, Emile, do you really think that I'm gonna be fine to just go in quarterfinal in my own country? No way, I want to win it.

Banks Also, when you've got a lot of major winners on your team, their mentality should be win the fucking major.

apEX Exactly, and I say, no way I go to Paris just to win, to go through group stage. That's just the first step for me. I want to win the warship.

Banks And it was the craziest major as well, because you went 3-0 to Legends, right? So straight through the playoffs, then you don't drop a single map of them. Let me have a look. You don't drop a single map, right?

Devilwalk I also went to Legend stage.

Banks You did go to Legend stage, you B&E boys. Didn't work out too well for you though. Failed against FaZe, you were known for beating in that. But apEX's journey was...

apEX What were you with?

Devilwalk Bad New Seagulls.

apEX Ah, true, true, true, true.

Devilwalk We lost the 16-14 Inferno last map against FaZe to get eliminated.

apEX They took the revenge from Rio, that's why.

Devilwalk Yeah.

Banks And your Paris run, I don't care about... You can only beat the teams in front of you, right?

apEX I don't care either, mate.

Banks Yeah, it doesn't matter.

apEX I know.

Banks But you win your major in Paris, the crowd is amazing, everything's epic. For you, at this time, especially now you're IGL winning a major, how much was this one better than Cluj? Was this one equal as Cluj? How do you compare?

apEX It's still better than anything. It's better than Austin. Just because...

Banks Really?

apEX Yeah, because it's Paris, because it's home, because it's in front of my mother, it's from my stepfather, it's one of my best friends, it's one of our Vitality fans. It was crazy. That was like...

Banks By the way, it's the second best crowd, and I've done a lot of stages, the second best crowd ever of all time. It was incredible. And the only thing it was limited by was just the size of the arena. Because if it was a bigger arena, it would have still been filled out, and it would have still been crazy. The fans that came, and this wasn't even just for you guys, it was for other teams as well. The energy in that arena, I remember standing there, and I can feel it. Like I can feel it, sometimes I can't hear.

apEX 600 people of Golden Hornets helping you to fill that.

Banks Yeah, with your face on the flag. That's the Golden one.

apEX That was in Cologne.

Banks Oh, that was Cologne. OK, OK, that was Cologne.

apEX So, what's the best crowd you have been?

Banks Antwerp.

apEX Antwerp? Actually, it was also the Golden Hornets as well, being there.

Devilwalk Yeah, it was because of them a lot.

Banks I'll say why Antwerp was special, just for everyone to understand, is that Antwerp basically was at capacity at 18,000, and then I heard that they let even more people in for the Grand Final Day, so it was rumored to be 20,000, but we've never had an arena of 20,000. And I remember standing on the Antwerp stage when phase one, my suit jacket was moving. It wasn't just my body, the sheer air, it was really super hot. We were sweating like crazy. But nothing will beat that, not even a Rio one when Furia was playing, but my second one is definitely Paris, then it goes into Rio.

Devilwalk But Antwerp one was amazing, watching the Golden Hornets with drums walking to the arena. It felt like it was crazy.

apEX Imagine we were not in the playoff and they were still there making a lot of noise.

Banks That's one thing I'll give them credit for, is there's some fan groups who just disappear if their team is eliminated.

apEX Talk about Rio.

Banks Yeah, exactly. And that's the saddest part, is that I'll say this to all the Brazilian fans that ask me if we go back to when we've been back to Rio for like when you won or the other ones as well that weren't majors. And I'm like, if you guys just had even 60% of that energy still when your country team wasn't playing, you'd get so much more love. Because in European cities, especially, and American now, even if it's not an American team or a European team, that energy still remains. And that's so important for all of us, from the people working, from you guys playing. And it's something that we all live for and feed off. Like, my best moments in my entire career are on stage in an arena that is loving every second of the game.

apEX Yeah, for sure.

Banks And I'm sure it's the same for you. So Paris, obviously, amazing. All the, yeah, the very highest point, the very highest point. And you've done it as an IGL now as well, which is obviously huge. Now, I got to ask you this, though, because you said no changes might come, right? If this was the case, the free still goes and then Flamzy comes in. Now, I know that Flamzy obviously didn't cost anything. A similar story to Rob.

apEX Yeah.

Banks Flamzy's contract was running out. He played it very smart. I spoke to him back at Dallas and he said, bro, I'm not sure what I want to do. He's like, oh, do you want me to resign? But if I don't resign, I might have a chance to go to a really good team. And obviously, I'll be a free transfer. By the way, Vitality, most winning org on signing players for free. And I'll say this, apEX, you are definitely part of the reason as being in IGL, but Zywoo definitely has.

apEX They were effective.

Banks Yeah. It's like, if you say this, some player will go, well, shit, they want me. I'll hold out all day long. I will wait and I will sign. So you guys are actually winning for the org in signing players for free. It's printing money. And people don't, I don't think people put enough credit on how good this move was because people just slammed it like, how are they going to remove Dupree? Oh, this is not the right decision, blah, blah, blah. But the potential in a young Flamzee, who's been, he'd been on so many mixed, weird lineups on OG. You guys obviously saw what a lot of people who were in the know-how saw of this player. But like you were able to mold him, right? You were able to help his development so much into what you needed him to be.

apEX Yeah.

Devilwalk But did you also take it in consideration like who Flamie was as a person, personality wise?

apEX Of course.

Devilwalk He's like such an easygoing, funny guy.

apEX Mate, when you go to an event, you know who he is. You know who he is. Even though you're not in his team, you know who he is. He's like this muppet running around and he's going to say hello to everyone. He changed a bit on that case, but at the beginning, I was like, I think you're too friendly, too friendly with the others. They are your enemies. I know you're living the life and I'm happy for you, but you need to be a bit more like, you know, some people are fine, you are a friend with, but everyone like is too much. And actually changed in that case. But yeah, to tell you, I didn't want to change the algebra.

Banks Oh.

apEX Because imagine working one year and a half to find a solution where you finally found it.

Banks Yeah.

apEX And you don't know what's going to happen if you change.

Banks That's scary, that's what scared me. No, I understand the move, and thanks God we did it. But at that time, I don't want to. I'm scared. And it's Zonic making the, and Vitality making the decision. But that's a good decision, like bringing the future.

Devilwalk It's one for the future.

Banks One of the guy that also fits perfectly to the roles, the way we play. Flamzee is one of the guy that enjoyed the most playing with us. He lost to Entry. We tried to set up him in the best conditions, et cetera. So, yeah, it's really important to do that.

apEX I actually have a question that just got reminded because of Flamzee, right? Because I watched like a little bit of something that you guys seem to call Eyes in the Sky.

Banks Yeah.

apEX So that's talking when you're dead and like how to help your teammates when you're dead.

Banks Exactly.

apEX When did that actually come in to play for you guys or you as a player?

Banks Actually, we did it. I always wanted to do it when I became IGL, but shox didn't like it. Shox never liked it. But the Danes, when they arrived, they said, we definitely need to do that because it's something they were doing in Ashfallos. So yeah, that comes from that.

apEX Okay.

Devilwalk Interesting. And so that's just the thing of not... Because the old way is like, if you're dead, don't talk.

apEX It's essentially what you were doing with Sae-Woo in some sense.

Banks Exactly. How much can you help when you're dead? You have all the overview. You click four times, most ones, you see four guys. And you don't have... The rule is, except me, you don't have to say, to do, to say people what to do. No. You need to say, guys, make a plan. Guys, there is a gap there. Or, you know, you inferno, they are two pits and two B. I tell them, guys, do something. Like, game play somewhere. It's not gonna work. Like, no way we will win this round. It's more this, not like making like plans for them. Just telling them, like, it's time to do something.

apEX Or, like, if you're good in a set up, after a plan, or...

Banks Or, telling them also, guys, you're perfect. It also gives this extra confidence. You can go both ways, like, on the good way and the bad way. And for me, it's a really important stuff. And we do it all the time, also in clutches, as you say, and also in sometimes, me, I'm telling them, well, like, if I'm dead to... Yeah, timing, you have a timing, or to a, you have a timing, or, you know, because you see things like that. And and it's really up for sure. Yeah. Nice.

Devilwalk And then we get into a weird stint, because obviously, after Flamesy joins, we then later in that year, we see Zonic and Lars go to Falcons, right?

Banks Yeah.

Devilwalk So at that point, this is more just a deal that I guess the organization can't stop from happening. I heard there was like the money issues, for example. It's a lot of money. Actually, it's quite funny. I was in Saudi and sat on a panel with Nioh. There was the owner of the Falcons. There's the owner of G2. And they were all squabbling like children about who's selling what to Falcons and what they're arguing with at the time. So it was like Niko, Zonic, Lars. Zywoo's name got thrown into the mix. Obviously, Vitality would never let go of him. But was this something that you just had to deal with? There was no way you were going to be able to keep him?

Banks They were running out of countries as well. And the problem was, yeah, it was a bit deeper than that. And that stuff, I can't speak too much about it. But yeah, it was tough to lose them because once again, we built something. We built something together. We were just winning these Gamers' Aids back then, the old WDC, and we arrived to EPL, and the announcers that, yeah, they're leaving. So yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy. You build a team, and also like Zonic is also helped me to develop. And mostly, I would say Zonic helped me more to develop as a human being, where X-Tars helped me more to develop as a strategic leader.

apEX Okay.

Devilwalk So how would you compare? Because I want to get a lot of people say, okay, Zonic on Astralis, you can't credit this to him. Zonic on Vitality, you can't credit this to him. What is it that he does? Like everyone gives this bullshit about he's a fraud. Clearly, he's not a fraud, because look at the success he's had.

Banks We all are frauds, we all are frauds, frauds.

Devilwalk What does he have? What does he give for you guys?

Banks What he's good at, the first thing is, he's good at making a group of winners. Like, you know, he's good at making five guys liking each other and being a real team. And that's not easy. That's not easy to do. What he's really good at is also the way, he's not really a macro coach, like strats and like the way you play. He's more of a, he was maybe a bit more before, but as he saw me working that much, he was like, fine, I leave him. So he's more like, are you perfectly to an event? Are you right to an event? Perfectly. And the way he is in practice to help us, etc. He was really good at it, like he is really good at it still. He is also like a really funny guy and that's really nice. He was really good. What he was really good is, you know, mostly Devilwalk knows that whenever you're in practice and it's tough there practice, okay, you're getting fucked left and right. It's not fun. I think this guy that is funny and say the right thing, that makes you laugh in this moment is like really good. I loved it. I loved having him like sometime he was like making the right joke or helping us to have like just a smile on our face and being able to reset and go on something else. And he also known as being really good at preparing for games. So yeah, I think that's his strength of role for my role.

apEX I love that as well because it's like if you can, I think players especially, even in serious games, there's moments like that, right? Where things are just like completely down, you have no belief and someone just cracks a joke and everyone forgets about it.

Banks Yeah.

apEX You know, you get so relaxed as a human being, you start, it's like a reset button.

Banks I agree, I agree. Doing that is really important.

apEX And it's all underrated, but looking from the outside, how he made you laugh, I can tell a joke, but it's not that simple.

Banks He's not making a joke, he's just saying the right joke at the right moment. It's a really tough job. And actually, what you say about that is like, it can be a joke, but it can be also like, I remember against Na'Vi in the Major, like Flimsy has a rough game, and in the half time, he says that he's whiffing. I mean, he struggles. And I just tell him, bro, you can whiff, I still love you. And after that, he just, back to back rounds, he just killed two and three in entries and we win the round. And it can be such a small thing you can do to your teammate, just show each other love, show each other that you care about them. And I promise that's something so important. It works with certain players, of course, and some other it works less.

apEX But with a guy like Flamzy, it will work differently for each player. Exactly.

Banks But with Flamzy for sure, it works well.

Devilwalk And then, I got to, before we get on to XTAZ rejoining, I want to talk about one of the very consistent pieces for you, Matt.

Banks Yes.

Devilwalk Because he probably doesn't get enough credit for the work he does.

Banks He deserves. He deserves.

Devilwalk But I love him. Because whenever I talk to him, I think it's no nonsense, straight. He's funny in his own way as well. Kind of a dry sense of humor from when I talked to him. But this guy is fucking knowledgeable. And people may not realize how smart this guy is.

Banks He's the best.

Devilwalk But he's been... When did he join? He joined 2020.

Banks The beginning of 2020.

Devilwalk At even one point, he coached you during Gamers 8, if I remember. Before XTAZ came in and you won it. But he hates it, by the way. When I asked him for interview, I don't want to do interview. He hates being spoken to on the content. He wants to be in the back.

Banks When 99% wants to be in the light, he wants to be in the shadow.

Devilwalk He doesn't care.

Banks It's a rare quality.

Devilwalk And at the same time, he doesn't take enough credit. Because I remember him in the 1.6 days. He was a capable player. This guy knows his counter-strike. He was playing when I was playing. Like, he is more than good enough and knowledgeable. And he seems to have kept going in it for such a long time.

Banks I'm sure.

Devilwalk So just give me your lowdown on how good he is for you.

Banks Okay, I'm a bit, I'm a bit fucked because he's also a really good friend of mine. So he's the best.

Devilwalk But he has to be, to be with you this long.

Banks He is the best human being I know. First of all, he starts by that. The guy is just too nice. Too nice, you know.

Devilwalk I'd agree, I'd agree.

Banks I just love him. It's just, it's so easy to be with him during tournaments. It's just be able to work with him. It's just too easy to trust him. The guy is the best at his role. I have no doubts. Like, I have no doubt he's the best at his role. Because he doesn't want, you know, where a coach, you see it with the Na'Vi situation where they lose Flashee right now, because Flashee wants to be a main coach. I think he never hide it to play there. He wants to be a main coach. Matt doesn't want to be a main coach. He doesn't want to be. He wants to be on the side. He wants to help people. For him, what he always says, he says, if I can help you and do my job to help you to be the best version of myself, I will be the happiest person in the world. This guy is so cool that everything he does. Whenever we do preparation or we do practice, and he tells me stuff, I trust it. One other person. I go blinded. I just go full blind and I do whatever he tells me. It's also because when you work for so long with Thurman, of course, you trust him more and more. And he's the best, without a doubt, he's the best. And it's just a pleasure to... I actually think if I will be retired, he will stop as well, because it's also a tough life. He's 40 this year.

Devilwalk Damn, I didn't know that.

Banks Yeah, he doesn't look that old, actually.

Devilwalk No, he doesn't at all. I thought he was similar age to me and Devilwalk.

Banks No, no. And the guy is just... Yeah, if I wasn't there, he would be retired already, probably. But I always tell him, keep going with me, finish with me, and let's get everything we can get together, because I need you by my side to be the first version of myself. And he's part of this Vitality success so much, and my success as well.

Devilwalk Through everything. And so then with that, right, X-Taz comes back.

Banks Yes, the board is back.

Devilwalk You're reunited. The board is back. You're reunited with Remy. Was this just you going, okay, I got what I needed from Zonic. I know who I want to work with. Was it your choice? Did you have involvement in this?

Banks Of course I was involved, yeah. They asked me. I didn't have to, like, if they told me, we go for him, I would have no choice, but... I was consulted, and of course I said yes.

Devilwalk Yeah.

Banks But, yeah, go ahead. If you have to ask something about him or whatever, I don't know.

Devilwalk Yeah, just for you to have him back, right? Yeah. Was there a difference in learning at this point as well? Because you said you learned so much from him. How did that dynamic work? How did things come together as a new formed duo reunited together?

Banks It was actually really tough.

apEX Because I remember you guys struggling a little bit when he came back and there was even criticism.

Banks Actually, at the beginning, we went to events in a row. So, you know, we went back to back Blast 4 Finals in Copenhagen and Blast 4 Finals. Yeah, exactly.

apEX I do remember there was some criticism.

Banks Yeah, in 2024. But what happened is, he comes back and for me, also, once again, it's like, I didn't understand that we lost like Magic and Zonic, where we were at our best. So I had a lot of struggle to deal with in my head. So I was not ready to welcome someone, even though I knew Remy so well. So actually, the end of 2023 went really well. It was new CS2, etc. We went to even back to back. And then we lost a bit of our dynamic. But what we lost is also the relationship between Remy and me. We didn't talk that much anymore. I was not really happy about stuff he did. It was probably the same way on his side. So yeah, we were like so disconnected, so much disconnected. And also like we had also bigger problems in the team that didn't help us to also focus on ourselves. So yeah, 2024 was a mess. It was a year where we missed only one playoff, but we also won only one trophy. But yeah, it was a tough one. It was a tough one because we really wanted to do better. But with the problem we had was a nightmare.

apEX Yeah, there was a lot of rumors with problems during that time, even in official channels.

Banks Stuff I can't say too much once again, but yeah, it was that easy to deal with. And what's tough in those moments is, yeah, who have been criticized the first once, Ixtaz, apEX Madesclaire. You know, and because you are IGL, because you are bottom-fragging, and because you are the coach. That's exactly what happened, and that's like really simple way of people to reflect about thumping. So yeah, that was a tough year. That was a tough year, and actually it was tougher than 2022, because actually in 2022, we were a team. We tried our best. In 2023, fall, I knew we could win two trophies, and we were still so close to win so many games. I remember with our performance coach, we did some stuff, work outside of the server. Yeah, Jack, yeah, with Jack. We did some work outside of the server, and he wrote all the games we got eliminated last year, and we were thinking which one we lost to ourselves, and which one to lose to a better team. I think 80% we lost to ourselves. So we were agree that...

Devilwalk You said that so many times to me, I remember.

Banks Hey, that was crazy. Like all the games, like we couldn't win the close game. Like zero, it's fine to win. I mean, to lose some, it's normal to lose some close game. But not to lose all of them. Not to lose all of them, it's not possible. So yeah, that was... That 2024 year was tough.

apEX It's so deflating when that happens, when it keeps happening, you can't figure it out and you don't know what to do. And every time you get into that moment, it just gets worse and worse and worse and worse.

Banks But what happened was like we had problems outside of the server. Like it was not like what we could call or etc. It was like more stuff around and more personal stuff. And what was really frustrating is mostly that I couldn't do anything. Also, I know that in 2024, I played a bit less individually, mostly the second part of the year, because I was like, even though I play more, it's not going to change the problems. We want to win. So yeah. And sometime you believe you're going to do good, you believe you're going to come back, you believe and it goes down again. That's crazy.

Devilwalk And I remember so many times in our interviews, Dan, where you'd be like, OK, this one, they beat us. This is fine. Like we lost. They were better. But then there were so many where it was like you couldn't, you obviously you couldn't say publicly that it was problems outside of what was going on. But you were just like, we're we're messing up. We're making mistakes. It's us losing to ourselves. And that was that was where you were most frustrated because you knew you could win. But you did manage to get the Cologne win in 2024, which obviously is huge. How big of a surprise was that for you? If you're being honest now, looking back at it, was that like just seeing, OK, this is what we could do if everyone focused up and how much was because obviously, I know you can't talk too much about the Sphinx things, no matter how much we all want to know. But how much was this the fact of him potentially leaving? Because that was when the rumors came out that him saying he wanted to leave. Do you think that helped you to win Cologne?

Banks No, I don't think so. I think that what happened is we ended the first part of the season. We arrived on the second part and we already, as you said, he already wanted to leave, but it didn't happen. And yeah, I was actually in a way sad that we will keep going together because I was like, if he wants to leave, he doesn't trust the team anymore. He's not like feeling it. So it's tough to work with someone that doesn't want, but I'm okay with that after all. I'm like, okay, forget it. I'm still going to work hard and do everything. So we did an online bootcamp, we call that, because we had a lot of tournaments in the role where we grind a lot, when we get better, et cetera. We go to EWC, we lose in quarter as usual. And then boom, we go to Cologne and all the work we did in that week, we stepped up in that tournament. And we could see a really good vitality where we beat Navi, the best team of 2024, 3-1 in the Grand Final. We're really dominating them. I mean, we're the best team at the tournament, we did the doubt, but we had the hurt, we need to give our best in this one. It was a bit different than the others. We were all ready to give our best and sacrifice for each other.

Devilwalk Yeah, and that's exactly what you wanted to be like. The only one I'm going to touch on before Spinks ends up leaving is just the World Finals event, because you get Jax back for one last run. And dude, it was actually crazy because, I'll be honest, my expectations were super low, but you do have a way of using this guy. You have a way of activating Jax. I get fun, entertaining interviews again, and he's just happy to be here and have this moment. Dude, do you know what it was like? It was as if he was a rookie coming to his first tier 1 event again. He was just, let's go, I'm going to do my thing, I'm going to try my best. And you were practicing with Mezi still, right?

Banks We did one practice. I think we played maybe one map with Jax.

Devilwalk And yet you go and make top four even here.

Banks And we could have actually go beat G2. That's the crazy part. Yeah, well, yeah.

Devilwalk What was that?

Banks It was actually, when I'm refraining about this, I didn't decide anything about him because he's a good friend of mine, but I didn't decide to take him. And actually when we picked him up, I was like, maybe we should have take a younger guy or whatever. Even though he's your friend, I'm not here to play with my friends. I'm here to win. So I was like, maybe we could have like try a younger guy like Natu that is in Ants or whatever, something like that. And but, Audrey Jack is coming. And I mean, I'm still really happy because he's my friend. So we take the flight together. We go to everything together. And yeah, we explain him all the time at the beginning of the game. So what he's going to do the day before, we play Spirit, we lose them. Then we play a really close game against Liquid. And after Liquid, our problems from the team come back. And we have a big talk without him, like a really big talk where we are really straightforward with each other. We're not really happy with each other. And we end up satisfied with the conversation. We play more the next day and we play really good. I think we beat them 37-37 with Jax. And we were revved against U2 and we lost to them. They win the trophy. They were really good at that time. But we're still really close to beat them. And it was a special tournament because I really wanted to... Jax never won a tier 1 trophy. You go on the I should TV profile and he never won it. And actually I was at his wedding two days ago and I told him I would do my best to make you win one trophy. And maybe this year...

apEX One more step.

Devilwalk One more standard time.

Banks It will be the right one.

Devilwalk Just tell Messi to have another kid. Jax steps in again and you go and do it. It will be no problems at all.

Banks Exactly.

Devilwalk Your step is ahead of all the other teams right now. It will be fine.

Banks Maybe. Hopefully. But yeah, he's such a great guy. And I just really like him as a friend. He's one of my closest friends. But he's also good at this in the game. He's really good at entry fragging and being like first and being aggressive.

Devilwalk He's fearless.

Banks Yes, he's really fearless.

Devilwalk Absolutely fearless.

Banks I feel like he frames it. They have the same idea.

Devilwalk I feel like if you told him anything to do, he'll just blindly follow it and go no matter what.

Banks Yes, he will.

Devilwalk Yeah, I can't imagine him saying no.

Banks And he was really happy to play on stage again, to be in tier one even again. Maybe it's going to be his last tier one even in his career so far. But yeah, it was a great moment to share with him.

Devilwalk He really was special. And then we come to the end of 2024. And obviously, I know you were super disappointed. But then, yeah, you can say. Because I remember the HLTV Awards, right? You're looking at Na'Vi picking up everything. You're looking at the drop off from you guys, the emotional year you had. And you do that interview, I think it's with Donna, right? And you just, you know you want to come back stronger, right? You understand.

Banks I just told you that next year I will be there and getting all the trophies. I just said it. I just said it. I knew it.

Devilwalk You spoke it into existence. That's it, right? It's visualizing, making it happen. And I'm a big believer in that, is saying what you want, believing what you want, working for it. And you have to either write these things down or you have to talk it if you really want it to happen. And then you guys, not only do you get rid of spinks, right? And let me ask this, I know you can't talk about the whole spink situation, but do you think teams in general, when we're having these problems, should make this information public? Or do you agree that it should be something that is, needs to be left out? Because from a fan standpoint, as I'm still a fan of the game, I'd love to know what the reason is that it broke out, you know? Now I know that stuff has been told to me, I can't say on camera, because we're here right now, but do you feel like some of it should be more transparent or is it better left in the dark?

Banks I think for the good of a lot of people, I think it's better that it stays in the dark. People do some mistakes sometimes. And I think it's better that it stays like that for everyone. So for me, it's better that it's like this. I had a wonderful time with Lothan. We won seven trophies together, a major, a Cologne. He didn't feel good in the team anymore. That's life. That's how it goes. I just wished him the best. When he won his first trophy with mouse, I messaged him and texted him and told him, congrats bro, I'm happy for you. He's part of my story as well, and we won a lot together. So for me, yeah, something happened, and people don't know, and it's the way it is. But I'm really... We made things together that matter, so for me, it always beat my heart in a way.

apEX I also think, like, you know, just because you're a public person doesn't mean that everything in your life should be public.

Banks Yes, I agree.

apEX Like, some things need to be kept private, and people deserve privacy.

Banks And mostly during the career, because, you know, some people do mistakes in their life, and if you say public, it can also be really bad for him. Like, maybe not find a new team and blah, blah, blah. And for me, like, doing mistakes is part of life. Everyone does mistakes. I think Spinks Rhino is happy in Mars because they seal the good, but when he seizes, he's not that happy. It's tough to be the guy that you replace and you win everything. That's tough for sure. You have to be honest. So maybe, I mean, he did mistakes, I don't know, but yeah, in a way, what I could feel myself, he did some mistakes with us, but it's a learning process. It's a learning process and probably now he's better with Mars, and he feels better there and his success is there, even though they didn't win that one because of us, because we beat them in three finals.

apEX Very much because of you.

Devilwalk Quite a lot.

Banks But they're still playing good and he still plays good. So for me, it deserves also happiness and success.

Devilwalk Yeah. He's still very young to have success going forward. But I'll say this, even if he was everything you wanted, when Rops comes along and he's free, you're probably still going to make this move, right?

Banks I will be honest, I was not sure to take Rops.

Devilwalk Wow!

Banks Because you don't know the premise, Robin. You have no idea who he is, the human.

Devilwalk Yeah.

Banks Who knows him? Except his teammates? No one. I tell you, no one.

Devilwalk He's not a public person in that sense.

Banks He's so quiet in tournaments. It's certainly about the public because, you know, it can also be the two-faced person, you know. We have some in the scene. I will not say the names, but we have some two-faced person where they are like that in cameras, but behind, they are like hassles. So him, you just don't know. You talk to him, the only way you talk to him is, hey, that's it. I played against him for seven years or eight years. I had no idea who he was. I had no idea. So for me, I was not like, I don't want him. I was like, I don't know. Is he going to fit with Framzee and me? We are like super dumb together. And how is he going to feel? How is he going to feel with us? Etc. It's tough, you know. In game, of course, I knew. Of course, you know, you know.

apEX There's a check mark on this.

Banks Exactly. Okay, Rob.

apEX I'll walk her.

Banks Perfect. But I'm really happy we picked him. I'm really happy. The guy is the best teammate I played in terms of work ethic, understanding the game, trusting the guy. In that regards, I also understand his success. I also understand FaZe's success. The guy is amazing, like amazing. The second best player you have played with, BNZEU.

Devilwalk Yeah.

Banks No doubt.

Devilwalk And that's crazy. You now got both of them on your team.

Banks Yes, perfect.

Devilwalk I got to ask this because there's a lot of, I don't know if you've ever played Runescape, apEX. No. Have you seen him play any in the practice room?

Banks Yes, I did.

Devilwalk Aha, there we go. This is my Robs. This is the Robs.

Banks Yeah, like a window game on the side of his bed. Yeah, I saw that.

Devilwalk Let me explain to you this, right, for anyone who doesn't understand it. That game will tell you everything about how he is such a mechanically good player, because that is the most intense, most crazy game you can play.

Banks Okay.

Devilwalk That is a full grind and requires absolute focus and concentration for maybe even the smallest tasks if you want to like perfect it. And I know he plays some hardcore characters in that game. He's got a normal account as well, but he's more than capable. But my thing, my thing was how he would fit in on the personal level with you guys. That's the only thing I was kind of wondering or worrying about. And I saw him that first event, it was Blast Bounty. And even if you guys didn't win it, I looked at him and there was this new buzz around him. There was this new energy, despite how good Shanghai was from him, from an individual level, I felt like I got a smiling, happier, different Robs.

Banks I think we never seen Robs smiling that much. It's not only because of winning, it's just because also the humans he is with. You know, we are, for sure, it's different humans than in-phase, but we are more like, we probably love a bit more and more like smiling away, I would say. I don't think they don't love or whatever. No, no, it's not the thing. But I think we are a bit more like living the life and enjoying it, you know, in a way. And I think that's, I think we can see it on his face, the way he is smiling, et cetera, and looking at Zywoo and smiling as well.

Devilwalk And obviously, his work rate, we keep hearing about this. Did you expect him to be this much of a hard worker and what he brings? Because am I wrong or am I right? When I say he helped almost everyone on your team get better in some way.

Banks Of course.

Devilwalk It looks like that from the outside. It looks like not just did he fit in as a player, but he came with either the new ideas or a different work mentality. Like, Mezi has improved, right? Flamzy has improved. I don't know about you. You probably improved as well, like working with him. Of course, of course.

Banks You do as individual as well. I mean, right now, he just by his work ethic, he helps you to grind more and work more because he doesn't miss nades. I mean, we always nades.

Devilwalk He doesn't forget nades.

Banks He doesn't forget nades. His strats are written somewhere and he never forgets them. Like, all the stuff is really good. And he creates new stuff. I remember the bootcamp before Austin. We played Roy on Train and another team, and he got matched on B on C when he was C2. And me, actually, I went out. I went to the hotel. I didn't know what I was doing, but I went out. And the next day, he said, yeah, I need to talk to you. And he worked on new stuff to counter what people were doing. And for example, it's a small gimmick, but on Train against Mars, third map in the Major, we created a new run boost on B, where actually when we have the two best spawns, one of us has the best spawn, he has the second. And on Longwall, when he comes from connector, he jumps on our head, he does his smoke to extinguish the molly, and it runs boost. And even though the guy has the best spawn, he will be in the sys before him, and he will wait for him there. And we created this move. Thanks God we had twice the spawn against Valve. He worked twice, he did the entry twice. So it's exactly Rob's there. You know what I mean? It's exactly Rob's.

Devilwalk Rob's magic.

Banks Yeah, he came to me, said, I have a new trick, we need to work on it. And yeah, you go on the server, you go with him, you work on the run boost, you do the run boost for him, and he kills. And the first thing I remember with him is, we were in the HLTV Awards bootcamp. So in Belgrade, we started our bootcamp there. And I said, okay, Robin, the way we're going to work together is, I want you and me to sit every night, two, four hours. We're going to do two maps every day. So we're going to do two maps per day. And I want you to hear what you want to do. Because my goal was to, I knew he told me he had a lot of moves, a lot of individual things, et cetera. So I was like, okay, what you want to do, that's the only thing we're going to add in our playbook for now, for Katowice, because we had like not the best amount of practice together. And you tell me. And I listened to him, and we had this mix. I mean, I was not listening. I was doing also like just like saying words, and he was showing me what he wanted to do. And at that point, I understood who he was. I understood who he was. I understood everything. And everything went so well at that boot camp. I don't think we lost the practice. I think we maybe lost one or whatever. We smashed everyone. At the end, our boss is coming for our CT rewards, and I tell him, we're going to win Katowice. I just tell you, Bonti, I don't know, but we're going to win Katowice.

Devilwalk He's again put it into the world. You again said it.

Banks I told him straight away, we're going to win Katowice. He said, oh, great then. Like he happy. Perfect. But I knew it. I knew because not only Robs was joining, but okay, first of all, Robs was joining from from a phase where they had a rough year. So he wanted to show on for sure. I knew he stars at the rough year as well as coach, and he wanted also to improve and get the best version of himself. As I was up to in the world, what the fuck is wrong? His first placement in seven years, I knew he wants to have the crown again. Flamzy.

Devilwalk That was good motivation.

Banks Yes, Flamzy. They have this little fight in Israel where they want to be the best Israeli player in their country. Time to show it. Time you are maybe the best of any country. And finally, Mezi as well criticized so much last year, being called the problem almost in a way like Kio Shimha used to be, and also has to show up. Because, yes, in 2024, for me, William, I always knew he had the potential. At some point, the management were thinking about replacing him. Because, why? Because it's true, he wasn't perfect enough. But I said also, I want me, I said to him and to the staff, I want to keep him because I know what he's capable of. And, in a way, I told him, the only thing you like, William, is balls. You need balls. You need to show your fucking balls to the world. And if you do that, brother, I promise you're not going to be a great player. I think you're going to have us to shine and to win. And that's what he did now. And so he had this, and me as well, criticized so much, also by some golden honors that wanted to change me. Yeah, apEX is too old, he doesn't want enough, he's not good enough, etc.

Devilwalk They say you don't want enough, they don't know you.

Banks Yeah, exactly, we hold our battle there, we hold our battle. So in a way, after Katowice, in 2025, that was my first pitch. I told them we have only a week of preparation together, but I want to win Katowice, I don't want to say, yeah, we need two months to be ready. And you all guys have a story to write next year. That was my first word when I was after the bootcamp, I remember. And yeah, magic happened after that.

apEX I remember, even us, we did podcast episodes, obviously, when we watched you guys. I remember being so freaking impressed from watching, you know, Blast Bounty was too early to sell, you didn't have enough practice, didn't feel like you made everything fit perfectly yet. And I remember watching Katowice and stuff, I said to Banks and we had a discussion, like, this is looking like it's Vitality's year, like all of it. And there was these small details that just, it's again, to this annoyance, like you're so annoying to play, you would play the best teams, you would double nade them at the perfect timing, you would do these things where you popping smokes at the right time. And not only that, but doing something added layer to it, you know, it wasn't just the standard, it felt like you're starting to make something that was like beautiful to watch. And it felt like I don't even know what to do to counter it when you watch it, you know? It's like it's so perfect, it didn't feel like you could, ah, they just misplayed this or that, which you can say about 90% of all rounds or things that someone did a misplay, but here it was just, they got so owned, they got completely wrecked. That's when I knew, that's when I knew like, okay, this is starting to look really special, like really, really special, what you guys were doing on the server. Could you feel that as well?

Banks I also felt something because, I mean, it's only the team knows, but when we lost Bounty to Eternal Fire back then, we lost and we played really bad, like really bad. But we all arrived in the practice room, and no one said anything, but at the end, we watched the game together, all together, but it wasn't like mandatory by the coach or whatever. We all arrived and said, okay, we need to watch the game for two or three hours, and on Anubis, we talked about this, we need to change that, on Mirage. I could feel the whole team working together. When you do stuff like that, usually two people talk and three are watching.

apEX On their side.

Banks Yeah, all watching this, or being in there but not talking, where all the coaches didn't have to say anything. They were on the side, they were just listening to us.

apEX Probably smiling, look at our boys.

Banks Exactly, perfect. They're doing the job. That's also the moment I felt like, okay, this team is special and this team really wants it. But when you win one event, you're like, maybe it's the honeymoon. When it's Katowice, you're like, maybe, okay, it's good, we play good, but let's see the next one. Let's see the next one. Then you go back to back to back to back to back to back tournaments. There you're like, okay, this is getting even more special. You know in some tournaments where, I will not lie when we arrive in Blast Lisbon, for example. Actually, it's to Blast and I will say that. No, actually Dallas as well. But I say, guys, we just won EPL. That was our goal because we wanted to do the Grand Slam. It's fine. We could say that, but no, I was like, guys, we are every tournament. Let's not waste our time. We're here. Anyway, let's give our best and win it. Let's give our fucking best. Rivals same. We arrived from Melbourne. We arrived at 1 p.m. at the airport in Copenhagen. We played the next day at 3. And I could tell them, yeah, it's fine. We just won Grand Slam. It's okay. No, I just tell them, guys, we're here for one week. Let's create something special together. I want to read every trophy with you. I repeat them that all the time. I say, guys, I just want to read trophies with you. I don't care. Same, we go to Dallas with four days of practice. We had a week off before. We arrived there. We said, yeah. We didn't. That's the first one we'd said, we didn't want to win it. We said, let's see where we are for the major. Let's work. Let's see where we are and work hard after. But we still win it, you know? So that's just like crazy season, like for sure the best season of all time.

apEX I mean, it is 100% the best season of all time. Like there is no shot. You can't even make the argument that any other season has been better than what you did.

Banks Yeah, I mean...

apEX For this period of time and this start of your team, it is looking to be... I mean, you could even argue right now that it is arguably one of the best, or the best team in the history of Counter-Strike. The run that you've made.

Banks I think, for me, we already are top 3.

apEX So much.

Banks Even in 6 months, we are top 3 best team of all time.

apEX But even if you would lose, like... I don't know, maybe win one tournament of the next half year, you would still be in that top of teams of Counter-Strike in a season.

Banks I checked... Like, what's the most win trophies in one year? It's Astralis. They won 10 out of 19. And us this year, we will do 16. So I want at least to recall them, at least to do 10. But it's going to be a better percentage overall.

Devilwalk Yeah, yeah, much better. But you said top 3, right? Obviously, Astralis is in there. Who's the other team?

Banks You need also to give credit to teams that... I don't know who. Maybe Fnatic, maybe SK. I don't know. I don't know. One of these teams. I don't know. I don't want just to put us like two above or like whatever. Like, you know, if you ask me about the best out here for all time, it's the same. I think I'm top 3.

apEX I won't lie.

Banks I put myself in the top 3. Am I above Kerrigan or Klay? I'm above one of them. I'm top 3.

apEX I don't know.

Banks But I'm up there.

apEX I think you're in the discussion for one of the greatest players to ever touch this game.

Banks I heard you say that. I heard you said that because I'm reading like on the tweets. And also I was watching a bit of sometime the podcast. As I said, in a way, I understand why you say that. And I really say thank you. I really like to hear that. But yeah, on my own way, maybe. Because I have a really different path than anyone else.

apEX I understand why you don't want to even think about it. Like from a mental point of view, it's not over yet. Like there's tons to go. But for me, you're 100% in one of the like, you're at least in the top three.

Banks Thank you.

apEX In like historical Counter-Strike players.

Banks That's huge.

apEX Because it's not about stats, you know. It's like you have the impact you've made and the longevity you've had from winning, even tournaments in Source, coming to CSGO in like, let's say like a nerfed position, grinding your way up into this position again and doing it with Envy, you know, G2. Then it's kind of a drop again. You have to create something new. Because I don't think people understand how tough that journey is to create something completely new and how many times you've done it.

Banks Yeah, I mean, thank you for that. But yeah, you're right. It's not easy for sure. And that requires a lot of work and a lot of like, thinking about being like different and watching yourself and etc. And a lot of work on the side. It's not only work, but yeah. But yeah, I mean, thank you for that. Yeah, a lot of sacrifice for sure.

apEX Well deserved.

Banks Thank you.

Devilwalk And this is why I love to have Devilwalk here, because it's not just an analyst. It's someone who's been through it, who's got the brain for it, who's seen it all.

Banks That's true.

Devilwalk And it comes through with a lot of warm credit. But to continue our conversation around this year, I'm not going to take too much more of your time, Dan, because you've already given us enough, which I appreciate.

Banks It goes really fast when you speak and it's interesting, so it's good.

Devilwalk As long as... hey, if you're happy, I'm happy as well. We're both happy. So this year, right, you already... when we spoke about Mezzi towards the end of 2023, I think it was when he first joined, right, you just mentioned something about him having some balls to play with, right? Now he seems like he has it, where he also has had this increase from Ropz from all your words. But you noticed that talent in him, that ability, is he now taking that more initiative? Is he being a bit more selfless, selfish at times? Because before it was everything for the team and sometimes putting himself in compromisable positions. Are you seeing the development of him to be the player he can be?

Banks Yeah, for sure. For me, it's still not enough. I think he could still do more. The difference as well from 2024-2025 is that he also has some better positions on the city side that help him to shine. Also some position that suits him more. I still want more from him. I'm not going to lie. I still want more from him. I know what he's capable of, etc. But yeah, I think I'm glad he improved and he's the player he is now. I mean, he comes from a scene that doesn't exist in a way. And yes, but that's just the truth. And yeah, the first UK player, etc. Being such a great human being as well. What's cool with William as well is you ask him to have a bit more balls, a bit more ego, but it's also his strength to be this teammate as well. You know, you tell him in the piece around, okay, we do this piece around, you have no kevlar, you have smoke. He never complained. Never, never, ever. Never said, oh, I want a kevlar or whatever. Why he was actually really sick with a pistol. It was like, no, it's fine. I mean, he wasn't even saying a word actually. But yeah, he's a really important piece for us. And people will never understand that even though we will have, actually he has good stats this year, but even though we will have like a stall instead of him, it will not work because you need the balance in our team. When you have Xyro raps, you need people to fit the gaps, to fill the gaps. And that's what we both, three of us are doing with Flamzy and me and Mezi. And that's important. And he also has some tough roles as well sometime, et cetera. And what I tried him to do is having more plays for himself. We worked on a few plays for him. We work on a few things that helped him to be a better player. And actually, he is coding them more, he is taking more initiative, and it's good to have. He can't take too much because then it creates something. But it's good to have him and I'm really happy to also did my stuff to kept him in the team. I don't know if we will have changed him, but actually I said that I didn't want to because for me it was important to have a guy like him in the team.

Devilwalk Yeah, and it's what he adds, right? It's not about the stats, it's about the things you're saying, where he is able to take these roles without complaining, to do these things without making a fuss about it, that many players...

Banks The best teammate I've had!

apEX But it's also like what you say is like, when you create, you can have that power in balance or imbalance in people who, if you switch him out for a quote unquote better player, I don't think there's many out there even still. But even then, changing the dynamic, and as you say, maybe someone that takes so much initiatives that it completely changes the way you play. Or like you mentioned earlier, that when shocks came into your team, that you had to step back a little bit. Some people, if you change that balance, it can almost disrupt the whole team.

Banks Exactly. It's exactly about that. And that is a really important player of the team. Actually, I was waiting to win the Major to say that, but without a doubt, it's the best team I ever played with. And so he's part of that as well. Without a doubt, he's a part of this team. And thanks to his behavior, thanks to the person he is, because I remember his father was there in London last year, and he asked me, will William still be there in Shanghai? And I said, yeah, of course, he will still be in Shanghai. And his family is also really nice, and you see, he's been a nice kid and nice education. And actually, you know, I remember seeing him, because I didn't know what would happen after Shanghai, and he was like crying a bit and being super unhappy about Team Resolve, about himself, et cetera. But when I see that, I'm like, this guy deserves, like, he deserves another shot. He deserves to be there. And now he proved the wrongs. He's in flames. He won everything possible in Counter-Strike anyway now. So you will not get that away from them.

apEX No, never.

Devilwalk And looking at just overall, right? You said you were going to wink out of it, so you said you felt it. Did you still have that confidence? Obviously, you said that at the HLTV Wars. Did you still have that confidence even after Blast Bounty? Or did it start to think, oh, maybe I overshot?

Banks You know, it's human to dub. If you're not dubbed, you're like a psychopath or whatever. You have no emotions, you know. You need to... Of course, I was like a bit down. And I remember I spent a few or four days with my girlfriend after that. And in a way, she doesn't like that, but it's the way I am. I'm a bit away. I was just thinking about CS. I was already thinking about new strats and how I could deal with stuff we had from Blast Bounty, etc. I think it's really tough to be dad's girlfriend in a way, because I love so much CS. And I spent so much time around that, that I don't have much time to share with family and others. So it's not easy to be with me. But yeah, I just love CS and I want to succeed. So it's an important step. So yeah, I was a bit worried because, yeah, of course, it's your first tournament and you don't play that good. But I'm like, the only answer I can get is work harder and understand better what happened and get better. That's it.

Devilwalk And you guys definitely did. And then to this run you've been on, right? All these event wins, all this success. It's obviously off the back of the hard work, the things clicking, everything coming together. But I remember seeing so many of the Vitality video logs where, like, the way you're talking to the team is in such a manner that I'm believing just watching the bloody video. I'm not even on the team and I feel like I can listen to you on this. Is this something you've always done? Because we didn't always have these good video logs of you guys. I didn't get this much behind the scenes. So I love this YouTube content because it helps me understand more of it. But is this something new from you? Is this the same energy you've always had? Because I honestly, as an outsider, will say, I feel like that's a big thing where if I'm believing it and I'm not even on the team, your boys are definitely believing it. Everyone's going to have that mentality.

apEX Maybe it was since apEX opened the box, you know, and released itself.

Banks Actually, yeah, it's part of that. But no, it's been quite some time, actually, I'm doing it. Like good speeches in important moment. It's not like I want to do it, but I just think about it too much before, but I just needed it at that moment. I remember, you know, when we lose to Mongols and Mirage in the Major, they don't show it. But I just tell them, guys, I would be honest, if you want to win, I'm not even mad. I'm not going to scream at you guys. But if you want to win this Major together, if you want to finish the season together on the right path, we just need to step up, boys, because what I've seen there was really bad. And yeah, sometimes you have to have emotional speech and be there and be harsh a bit, etc. And sometimes, yeah, there is no need to do it. There is just like right words at the right moment. But this is something that you don't overthink too much. It just comes with the situation, you know. But yeah, I think I've done it for quite some time. And yeah, I think it's also part of being a captain and having at least a little bit of charisma to be able to do it. Yeah.

apEX Everyone cannot know.

Banks That's for sure.

Devilwalk No, definitely not.

apEX I think you have to have an inert ability to be able to speak with emotion to some extent.

Banks And also not in your language sometimes it's tough. To speak with emotion in English is not easy. When I'm getting mad in English, I'm like, you know, I can't speak properly.

Devilwalk But the thing is, I see with you, Dan, and there's a few in-game leaders I don't see it with, I will say is, you're an in-game leader, but even if you weren't an in-game leader, you would still be a leader of men, you would still be a captain, because you have that persona, that charisma, that aura, as they like to say now, right? But there are some IGLs who don't have this, who are good IGL, but they can't do any of this shit. But you have that, and this is the magic that I think makes the difference between just an IGL and then a real IGL of what they can do and what they can deliver. And in that, you've nailed it. But there's also something else I had noticed that was interesting. And I haven't seen any other teams do it personally. So you guys will finish a map and you go outside, right? They've got the cameras following you. The team, first all together, then you disappear with map.

Banks OK, I will explain.

Devilwalk And then Remy is with the rest of the team and with the performance coach. So what's going on here? Can I understand how this is working?

Banks For sure. I will explain to you. It's pretty easy. Most of the time, I prepare only two maps myself. OK, I'm not... And as a team, we don't always prepare three maps. Because when we're not sure about the third, I think preparing four or five maps together is bullshit. It's bullshit. You give too much information to your players. So what I'm doing is usually myself, I prepare my two maps by myself. So I most of the time know what they're going to pick. I know what we're going to pick. So I prepare those two maps. So the third map, I don't know much about it. I mean, not enough. So whenever we have a third map, I go with Matt, where the guys go with them. And I listen to him and he tells me the stuff I need to listen to. And the little stuff from Austin. We win those two against Mongols. We go outside. I go with Matt. And I'm so much nervous and stressed that he talks to me. And I can't listen to him. It goes in one ear and it goes out in the other. I'm so stressed that I can't... I think I asked him four times to repeat. Like, sorry, bro. I can't listen properly. Can you repeat again? I'm sorry. Like, it was crazy. And I told him. And also, what I think my guy is like with me is like I'm a true person. I told them, guys, I'm so stressed right now. I'm fucking stressed. It's crazy. But it's going to be good together. And whenever I'm in the game, I'm no stress anymore. But whenever you go out of the stage and you talk, I don't know, you know, reflecting and think, Oh, what? How can I counter that and how we'll do it? And but whenever we in the flow in the game, it's a lot easier, you know? So yeah, I remember that just to.

Devilwalk And that is crazy, right? Because let's just look at this. We've all spoke about the events. We know what you've won. It's an incredible achievement. But this major was you start off against the Mongols losing Mirage. You already spoke to us about that. Then this does too and you're mega stressed because you're going into Inferno. There was once the map I said, you guys can't lose them. And then all tournament long, you lost it.

apEX And I was like, It's not only losing, you were getting crushed.

Devilwalk 33, 34. And I'm thinking, fuck, Mongols used to be pretty damn good on Inferno. Am I watching this fumble up here? And the interesting part about Inferno, let me get this right. I think it was, yeah, it was you, Mezi and Flamzee, who just went fucking bonkers.

Banks Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were really good.

Devilwalk That was the support cast going mega mode.

Banks What happened with me is I was really good on the CT side.

apEX Was that like a thing where like you prepared every other map so much that you kind of forgot Inferno being so good before the Major? Or was it something else?

Banks Actually, no, I don't know. You know, the first game of the tournament was OK. For me, the reason behind the two lows we had, it is more... Now we worked on the maps on the same way, I would say. OK, overall. Maybe we struggled one or two sides that we worked a bit more, but actually we added stuff on Inferno. We reflected. Against Legacy, we lost, but it's a bit of a weird game that happened. We win the pistol, we lose the second round. It's already tough in CS nowadays on CT side when you're on T side. I think I would love to watch how many... What is the score after that? A lot of time, I think it's a crush. They had a lot of kill-through smokes, a lot, like you never seen before, and we didn't play our best. In first game of the tournament, so that was a bit weird. The Mars one is on my butt. I was calling like shit, like crazy. I felt it was a bit maybe too easy in my head, and I really called really bad. And also we... We were not there. I remember like ZywOo, we'll never do this mistake. One of the important one, we are 0-2 down or 0-3. Oh no, if you 1 or 2-1, I don't remember. I think we 5v4, 4v4, we go B. And ZywOo has a CT molotov, but he still molly triple.

apEX Where?

Banks You can't do that with a CT molotov, you know? And he knows it. He knows it. And he does the molly, the guy is triple. We don't expect him. He does two kills and we lose a round. And then everything goes bad and I start to call bad, etc. And yeah, it was a bit of a team playing bad and also myself. So yeah, actually, to play against Mongols, we talk about the maps and we are talking about that we don't know what they're going to pick. We're not sure. We think it's Mirage, most likely. But what do we do on the third? Inferno, Nuke and Anubis, what do you want to play? And the guys didn't want to decide the Major on Anubis. So they say we remove Anubis. But they were still fine to play Inferno. They were like, okay, we lost it twice and we were fine with it.

Devilwalk But like, do you think, because if I'm right, this year Mongols have beaten you on Nuke, right?

apEX Yeah, twice.

Banks Twice? Twice, yeah. No, once.

Devilwalk One was a crazy overtime?

Banks Once, the other one, we won that.

Devilwalk Let me look down this one.

Banks I'm pretty sure.

Devilwalk So we got...

apEX Because I think they had the opportunity to go...

Devilwalk No, they beat you twice. They beat you in ESL Pro League, 16-14, the crazy overtime.

Banks Okay, and one in Dallas?

Devilwalk And then Dallas 13-7.

Banks Okay, my bad.

Devilwalk So, I can't expect you to remember everything. Your memories are amazing.

Banks I'm so unhappy about myself.

Devilwalk His memory is not as good as we thought. We've lied this whole episode. But you lost twice to them and they still chose Inferno. I'm guessing because of what performance you showed on it, the Major.

Banks Because they don't... Actually, I think it's a team that are playing with their conviction and I don't think they like Nuke that much. You know, they beat us and et cetera. It was nice, but I don't think they like it that much. And they also had a really good win, I think, on Inferno as well, lately. So I think we were pretty sure they would decide Inferno.

Devilwalk OK, yeah. So it boiled down to that. You guys absolutely smash it and you lift the trophy. And even if the American crowd fucking hates you, they had to give you some flowers and some love then.

Banks Yes, I don't think they hated me. I think that it was...

apEX I think at this tournament, it was different.

Banks No, but even in Dallas, just one guy started a meme. And actually, everyone that came to the signing session, I met a lot of people after that. They were saying, it's just a meme and we love it. Like, we just kept doing it and we just... It was just fun to say, fuck you, apEX, you know? So they were like...

Devilwalk And you're the villain.

Banks Exactly. And I'm like... And the way I answer as well, I think it's also what they liked. And so I knew it happened in Dallas 2024. It happened in Dallas 2025. I knew it would arrive in Dustin as well. Dallas and Dustin are pretty close nearby. So yeah, I had to... I knew it. But it was a fun one. It was like a really fun major for me, a tough one. But all the villain hawk, et cetera, was really good. And yeah, it was really nice to win and, sorry, be part of that.

Devilwalk And this thing with the American crowd, right? It's all fun and games and we love it. But your idea to film when you were middle fingering them, this was genius. You even become a souvenir as well.

Banks First, you know what's fun with that? I decided to do that one minute before we went up. I told to the guys, I never thought about it before. I said, guys, what about coming with my phone and doing middle finger to everyone? And I saw wraps and frames and said, yeah, it's a good idea.

Devilwalk Of course, yeah.

Banks So they were like, yeah, it's going to be so, so good. So yeah, I did it. I did it and it went crazy. Like I think between TikTok, Instagram and Twitter, I have like 6 million views, more than 6 million, 6.5 million. That's crazy. CS2 retweeted and I saw the guy from Valve after. They said, one of the guys told me, my mom watched the game and the guy is like 40 or 45. So his mom has to be like 65, 70, 75, I don't know. And he said, she said, you're really funny. So everyone was like, when he said that, I'm like, oh, his mom will not be happy, but he's talking the other way. And I think it's also, not many people can do that in a way. And it's accepted that way. And also like, the sharing the cake is being in the game now. Like the only highlight outside of CS is me middle fingering everyone.

Devilwalk Yeah, that's a beautiful way to remember it.

Banks Like what the fuck is going on?

Devilwalk Does that thing keep you got the you got the trophy in game? You got the stickers in game and you've got the video footage.

Banks What the fuck is that? Like, you know, it's it's it's just so funny. And that's, you know, a friend told me that like a lot of Majors will be like not really remember like, well, maybe this team, this team, but this Major will be like, oh yeah, Vitality won with the middle finger of apEX. You know, I remember like that. That's pretty fun.

Devilwalk And this is your charisma. This is what we're talking about. Not just as a leader, but as a person. And one thing is maybe you'll agree with me or not, but it's one thing I see. I feel like the dad I see now in front of me compared to a few years ago, as someone who's been doing interviews and talking with you a long time, is I see an apEX who is at peace with himself. You are so incredibly fit and healthy now. You're not the chubby Dan of before. You're in tune with your mind and body, and you seem happy and at peace with yourself. Am I right? Is that what it feels like right now for you?

Banks I think you're completely right. You're completely right.

Devilwalk How have you done it? How have you done it in such a noisy and crazy... Do you remember there was times where I'm in the gym every event, now I hardly go. I'm completely opposite of where you're at right now. I just feel like sometimes... I'm not a player, I'm not having to deal with anything like you have to deal with, but I feel like sometimes there's so much noise and stress and unknowns that you just want to shut down in some ways. But you've come so far as a person. How the hell have we got to this stage of your life?

Banks Well, first of all, for the sport way, I think that it helps me to be more confident. You know, like someone that feeds his body to feel good in his life.

Devilwalk Look at your arms now.

Banks What's funny is right now, I came from vacation, I probably gained two or three kilos, the classic, enjoying life. That's all I needed, you know. But I feel a shame about it, you know. I feel a shame right now, I really need to go sport again. Normally, I was supposed to go to sport tonight, but I had the plumber that had to come because I have a water problem. So I had to wait for him and it took too long, so I couldn't go. And I'm like, what the fuck, like it's bad, I need to go, you know. So for me, you feel that it exactly, I really need to do it to feel good. And also in a way, it's helped me in my personal life, but also in my professional life. Since I do that, I'm more confident, I'm playing better, I feel better, and everything is just better in the way. So yeah, it's really an important piece of myself, and a really important one. Then you write about something, and I wasn't thinking about it, but yeah, the piece was myself. Now I'm in the piece with myself because I want to win more for sure, because I'm here for that, and I don't want to waste any time, and I want to enjoy. But yeah, I did what I had to do in this game. If tomorrow I live, I came to a point right now where in a certain amount of time, I don't know how long, but I will be the player with the most roughest issues. And that's an unbelievable achievement, and that's something that I never believed I could do, but I've done it. Whatever the haters can say, I got carried or whatever. But the truth is, we know we say, man's life, not numbers. And that's exactly what happened. And that's something maybe I also like with the career and what I've won, I feel a bit more in peace with myself. That's actually true.

apEX Yeah, I see.

Banks But that doesn't change the fact that we start a new season and I want to win. And I'm here in CS, and I always said that I will give everything until the really end. When I will finish the end, I will stop, but I don't want to waste time. I don't want to do anything. So I'm going to do my best match again every day. I'm going to face it. Not tonight because we are already a few hours in this podcast and I didn't know how long it could take. But as I'm speaking a lot, that's true. But yeah, I'm in a way know that I've done what I had to do. And also something that is not easy, I'm proud of myself. I'm proud of what I became. I'm proud of what I'm doing. I'm proud also in my personal life, in the way I'm acting. And in this world where a lot of shit happens and you never know what's tomorrow. And like people, like no one is really happy in this life. Like it's really tough to be happy. It's really tough. So we really need to, as humans, when things go well, when you're proud of yourself, like just tell it to yourself. Like, yeah, I'm proud of myself. I'm not lying. I'm really proud of what I've done in this game. And the print I put there, and that will be forever. And that's something I'm really proud of. And I want to keep going. But yeah, it's an important thing for me.

Devilwalk And like, I'll say this, right? I obviously watching you grow and watching you do this is just someone who's talking to you, interviewing you. It's not like we're super close mates, but we talk, right? And I'm seeing this, and that's why I said I can see that you're now at peace with yourself. You're in this good position. And not many people ever get to this point. Like you said, like the achievements you have and what you've done. So now the question, I guess me and Devilwalk have for the future is, like teams are making changes just to try and beat Vitality. You're in that position. How do you keep this team so hungry? Because you've won it all here. Can you tell me now that you still know that, like, you came back to practice today on the full team. So you're ready back to the grind. Do you still see that the team are hungry again? Or you only know that when you get to the next event? Is this going to be where... Because you're the frontrunners to win Cologne. I don't see any of the current changes of teams with something that's going to instantly change them to beat you guys. I still think there's a huge gap.

apEX Yeah, I mean, yeah, you kind of have to go back to that start of the year. And maybe remind everyone of, like, what were the... You mentioned what motivated everyone to kind of pick up the work and all this stuff. Because I know for a fact that it's like... You get to this point, people can get complacent, really.

Banks Oh, I know that as well, Aris.

apEX I know that.

Banks Yeah, you're right. To be honest, it's not easy. It's not easy to have the right words, no. Because imagine you come out and like the guys are like, yeah, but we won seven of eight trophies. What else can we win? Like, you know, and you need to set up goals all the time. And you know, what's fun is like a year ago in Cologne, they asked me a question and I said, I want to win a Katowice or Cologne and a major before I retire. And within that year, I won all three. So the only thing that is important is to put new goals, new one. I think I fit it. But if we win Cologne, why not a second Grand Slam?

apEX Yeah, why not?

Banks Beating recalls? No, no, the truth is we need to beat recalls. That's the thing we have to do now. We have to fight against Astralis. We have to be a team that won more than 10 trophies in one year, maybe. We have to fight. And what I tell them, I told them in 2023 and it didn't work out, unfortunately. But the truth is we are the top and it's tough to get there. But you realize that it's tough when you drop down and you go down a bit. And then to go back, that's the tough moment. That's really fucking tough. But right now, if we keep grinding and keep a step ahead, inviting new stuff, creating, for example, today, okay, I will be honest. I had a bit less than a few weeks because with Austin coming back, et cetera, we are on the Tuesday late.

Devilwalk It was a horribly small break.

Banks Exactly. So I didn't think about CS at all. No strats, nothing, just taking care of myself there. But today we went on train and I have two new ideas. But me, I'm also really, I mean, with the experience, et cetera, I don't need to go on the server and reflect about CS. Like today I found a new idea. We did it in practice. It worked so well. But just because I created it when we were practicing, you know? And then, yeah, my brain is coming back and I expect everyone to do the same. I expect what, why, I would say, why you were that good, Maisy? Why you were that good? Say, why you were that good, Rob said. And I expect that from all my teammates and I will push them. That's the sure thing you will know for me is I will push everyone. I will push everyone every day to tell them to not be happy if we do a shit practice day. To not be happy if I see that people don't work enough. I do not be happy if I see, I look at the Faceit page and I see no Faceit from everyone except Rob because he's the only one that is able to not do Faceit because he never does Faceit. Because I know he's doing all the first, etc. We all have a way to be good at the game and we need to be good. And same for me. I've also been good in D&D during the past few months because I'm grinding the game, because I'm playing this match every day, because during one month before the major, I was doing more than 1k frags per day. Even though I have more work, even though I had came to prepare, every day I had my 1k minimum frags. I had my Faceit doing it and I had my sports as well. I had no time to do anything else, but I was doing it because I know that's the recipe to it. And that's exactly what I'm going to take care of this year, that if we do all of that combined, this 7-part season will be amazing. I'm not saying we're going to win as much as we did, because that's once in a lifetime or not. You know what I mean?

apEX We will see.

Devilwalk The year is not done yet.

Banks But we can win at least three trophies. I know that. And the big goal is to win the back-to-back major. Being one of the only team with Fnatic and Astralis to do that. And why not a second round of SAB? This year, in November, I can have in three months, four months, I can have a second round of SAB in my pocket. Like the year itself goes with yourself. And back-to-back column never happened, I guess. Maybe I can actually tap and escape. But yeah, for example, I don't know, like whatever. But I want to...

apEX But it's interesting, it's interesting to like kind of change the goals to something that isn't that obvious. You have to kind of look into the history books.

Banks We have to know, we have to. Because what we did is already legendary. We won everything possible in the last six months. So you need to find new goals. Like imagine Michael Phelps. He won everything for so long that he needed a new one. If you want to be me, I would say also in the way with my friends at the beginning of the year, with Jax, I told him, my goal this year is to win 30 trophies at the end. I was 26 trophies. I'm 33 now. Okay, let's make it 40.

apEX Yeah, and you could do it by the end of the year.

Banks I'm not done for now. I want at least to play two, maybe three more years. I don't know. But I need to set up goals. Whatever I've done, otherwise, it stops here. It stops here. It's useless to keep going.

Devilwalk And looking at that, right? So the goals you're setting is very clear. Back-to-back majors, the Grand Slam, breaking records, doing the stuff. It all looks very possible for you right now. But you just mentioned about before you retire. You mentioned your girlfriend, right? You're looking at future of that side of things on your personal life. You said she's very supportive, but is there a point where you're saying, okay, I need to slow down, settle down, give more time to that? You think of doing a mezzi, having a kid, where does that come into things?

Banks At some point, yeah, I would love to think about people that love me, that do everything for me to take care of them. But I don't know if it goes to the same point I told you before, I don't have to have regrets. I don't want to stop too early because I will have regrets. You know, people will say, yeah, it's perfect to live when you're at the top. But all people that live when they are at the top, they come back because you know you could do more. That's the problem. Then you're like, oh, I fucked up. I should have stayed. Me? No. Whenever I feel I'm a weight in a team, it's not working that much, etc., I will stop. But the problem is maybe I'm such a passionate guy that maybe it's not going to come now, it's maybe not going to come in a few years either. But that's something I will have to talk with my girlfriend to be sure that we're in the same page because also I'm 32 years old and she's 32 as well. We don't have kids. We want to make kids as well and at some point, there is a clock that's running and we need to do as well. So it's not easy. It's not easy conversation. I can tell you I'm really happy. I'm really happy in my life and I love what I'm doing, but sometimes you have like the personal life takes over and you don't see your family that much. I want to also take care of my mom. I want to see you a bit more as well and be sure that, but that's because you see like so many people that can die so far. Like you look at this Diego Jota player, a football player that just died. He was 27 or 28 and just died. So life is so short. Everything can happen that you need to take care of everyone. And that's the tough part also with us is we do things that we love. It's so much enjoyable. We earn good money, but at the end also, like we have a family behind and money doesn't make everything. Yeah.

Devilwalk Some things money can't buy it and you can't replace the time.

Banks Exactly. You can't buy time.

Devilwalk As we get older, we really start to understand.

Banks Yeah.

Devilwalk Devilwalk, any final things from you, mate?

apEX I mean, I had like just small things like or small, but I had things like obviously in your in-game leader growth, you've played with, you know, massive in-game leaders in the French scene. You had a lot of different influences. Even if someone wasn't a pure in-game leader, there's still like influences you can take or concepts that you can learn. From people, do you have any like memorable? You don't have to mention maybe what the concepts are if you want to keep them secret, but like, is there anything like really notable that you feel like, okay, I got this from him and I use this today?

Banks To be honest, is that in-game related? It's more like humans, et cetera. So, I look back at all my ideas and first, I was like, what I don't want to be, what I didn't like in my ideas, what was something that I was like, really against. For example, existence was really too much in his own way. Like, if you had like your opinion, it was like, at least to me, not listening enough and not being open enough about that. So, that's something I never wanted to be. I always wanted to listen to people. I think my own identity and my own opinion, but listening to people and trying to understand them. And sometime you will tell them, yeah, it's bullshit. I don't agree with that. Or sometime you take stuff from him because he says a good thing. That's the first thing. On a good way from existence, being a leader of men, you've always been a leader of men, always been a good captain. I wanted to be like him. I wanted to be that captain that you can trust. Existence, you could always trust him in anything. Also in his work ethic. He was really good at that. Like really good work ethic, really good man, but not... Yeah, the thing is not listening enough to his players. That's stuff like that I tried to reflect on. Like not really about good thing or bad thing, so it's pure IGL, but just like stuff around. Also, I learned how to play slow with Arts back then. Arts is a legendary 1.6 player IGL, we're in the French scene. He has his own style. Everyone knew he was doing map control all the time, and going on the website really late, like old Navi style, big style as well at some point with GodB. I learned also that it's also good to play really late round, and having this really late round, and not being stressed, etc. So many small stuff from everyone as well, and also from Alex also was really stable, and was at some point not listening, and saying to me that you will never be an IGL. That stuff I will never say to my guys as well, because you never know what the future holds. And actually, I said it to love to Zairou, because he knows the joke. He was there as well, and we laughed about it together already. But when sometimes he says something, I'm like, bro, you can't understand, you will never be an IGL. So, you know, in a meme way, but yeah, it's small thing that I learned from the others, and creating my own style as well. Yeah.

Devilwalk It's funny, you said Zairou will never learn to be an IGL, but there was a topic that came up, I think it was after he resigned or something, about him being the one to fill in your place. What was that?

Banks People didn't understand, and maybe actually Néo said it in the wrong way, but what he wanted to say is that we want Zairou to be a leader. Like, you know, on the lockers in football, you have leaders of, technical leaders, we call them in the lockers, yeah, in the locker room, sorry, in the locker room. In football, you have like those people. You know, Messi for a long time, he wasn't, or even Ronaldo, they were not like the captains. But as they were so good in their own field, people, if they were saying something, people would listen to them. And that's what I said to Zairou, like, you talk so less, not so much that whenever you talk, everyone is like, oh, Zairou is talking. And that's more about that, that he wanted him to be more of a leader, not being an IGL, but just more of a leader. So that was the...

Devilwalk It's the power of his voice.

Banks But I don't think Zairou will be an IGL. It's set for the beam, but it's just knowing him for so long that I know him pretty well.

Devilwalk Yeah, yeah, that's fair. I got one funny question for you, Dan, is that, is it possible for Rops to win an MVP?

Banks Yes. It's the first time I told myself that it's possible. I think I'm going to check, but in Melbourne, it was pretty close.

Devilwalk No, no. Yeah, so let me ask you this. Don't check anything yet before you cheat me out of this one. What do you think is the highest rated event Rops has ever had?

Banks I know it's in Melbourne. I know it.

Devilwalk It was Melbourne. Yeah, and it was with you guys. Despite how amazing he's been, his best ever event, even when he's won MVPs, was with you guys with a 1.30 rating. But then, I don't know, what did, let's look, was it like we dropped like 1.40?

Banks No, 34 or something.

Devilwalk 34.

Banks I think it's 34 or something. We talked, we had this.

Devilwalk 39, 39. Yeah, it was nearly 1.40.

Banks 39, okay. Yeah, but he knows it's going to be tough. But it's the first one I say that it's possible to win a MVP ahead of ZywOo. He's the only one that I see capable of doing it. It's not going to be easy, but yeah. And what's fun is that before EPL, I said I was looking at the stats of my teammates and mostly Raps and ZywOo. And the best tournaments they had was in EPL, like the studio event. So I told them studio missions. So I'm like, okay, I have really two really good players to play there. So it's perfect. Let's wait it. Because I think Raps maybe has five MVPs and he won maybe two or three in EPL.

Devilwalk Two EPL.

Banks So I'm like, okay, you're an EPL farmer, brother.

apEX I have one other.

Devilwalk Yeah, three EPL.

apEX So I know I always praise you guys when you play, especially when I watch you play Spirit. I feel like you're the best team in the world to neutralize Donk in a good way. I think you're really good at finding the double nades where he goes, putting Sae-Woo in positions where he will be, where he doesn't get the chance to shine. Is that something that you guys talk about a lot when you go into a game like against Spirit that we need to find ways to make his impact less?

Banks Of course, whenever Donk arrives in 2024 and he did that Katowice run, like the best performance of an individual of all time in a big tournament, I was thinking of watching him. I'm like, I need to be ready whenever I will face him. Like, oh, I will counter him. And the first time we play against him is Dallas 2024. We played him in the quarters and I think he dropped a 0.86 rating. And yeah, I think that we have something. It doesn't mean that he's never going to destroy us. Because I believe that he might be able to. Yeah, I'm trying to find a way to play a bit different. And for example, for me, he's the best of 1v1s. You know, if you give him a 1v1, you can't give him a 1v1. So that's why FaZe were the perfect for him. I think when you look at Chatovice's final and Grunner's major final, he dropped probably 175 on the one and 196 on the other one. Because FaZe, they are these players. They take duels all the time to play against Donk. In that regard, it's tough. So, you know, for me, my way is, I tell my guys just sometimes just to play different. Like, I know, you know, we need to play on strength, but we have so many good players that play can be different as well, that not only have one way to be good at, but have other ways. So, it's not only against Donk, but some other teams, the way they play. I ask my players to play a bit different way, to have like some different, like maybe a bit a bit, sometimes a bit less all in, you know, against some teams, because they are really good at, you know, when, for example, if people play really back, I ask people sometimes to not be all in, because they will refrag. Their goal is to refrag. Sometimes just kill one, hide. Let the other to pick, or ask for a flash, or, you know, shadow and mirage, except of re-picking. You do one kill, you wait for a flash, or you hide, your friend is picking, kill in one more, you can re-pick, etc. Like those two things. And sometimes I'm asking my guys to play in a different way against certain teams or certain players, because, yeah, it's different, and it's normal to have a little of counter when a kid is that good.

apEX Yeah, because I think, I mean, all teams, just like you said, like back in the days when you have Navi as like an opponent that you just couldn't beat, you could beat everyone else, but Navi was crazy hard for you guys. That's when you need, you know, some styles just counter you. Like some teams will just counter you, and you can't approach the game in the same way and just bang your head against the wall.

Banks Yeah, but it's tough as well for some teams. That's right, because I talked with them, you know, in the wedding, like Jax is in a foot team, is like the Turkish organization, and he plays, his ideal is David Hovec, and I had this call with him and I told him, for me, what's important when you beat in the bottom, in the ranking is to be good at one style. You can't be good at everything. It's already tough for us in tier one that's been playing there forever to be good in every style. You guys need to be good in one style, like Gambit did back then. Like VP as well did with James. Like Furia did in the other way. They had their own style with hearts and they were doing it. It was not enough to win trophies, but that was good enough to get there. That's what I told them. For us, I have the players to be able to do it, to be able to play and to play different ways against certain teams. For example, I take the example because now they are a bit in tier two and we play them less and they change a bit at the end. But when we used to play against James, why would I use dates at 1.30 in a round? That would not make sense. We won games against them where we were keeping all our dates. They were coming at 25 seconds. We smoked. GG, guys. You need to come to now.

Devilwalk Go save.

Banks I'll save. I'll go through, kill two and go save. But it's exactly what's important there. Playing a different way against different teams, because everyone has their own style and you can't copy pass everything you do all the time against every team, because then you will be countered. That's also part of why we've been successful, is also our way to change the way we play. Sometimes we play map control really slow, sometimes we play more pop and having more strats, and sometimes we play more default and playing a bit more lose. It just depends against who we play and the confidence we have at that moment. For me, that's so key to be also recognized as a good idea and be a good idea. You need to be able to play a lot of styles.

apEX I 100% agree. I even wrote down the most dynamic team, because you can fake defaults with patterns, you can do the default with the same pattern. I know how it is to be on the other side when you hear the same things all over again, but something different is happening every round. And you are just scared. You know that, okay, I cannot be alone, go here. I cannot be alone, go there. Because if that happens, we lose. If that happens, we lose. And you have to create so many problems that you have to solve on the server, that as an enemy team of yours, you have to connect everyone at the same time. And you don't always have the time to solve all the solutions as a whole group.

Banks Yeah, you're right.

apEX It makes it much more complicated to fix these issues.

Banks You know, that's the thing for me, being a good IGL, what does it mean to be unpredictable? That's the most important. Because, for example, when you see some teams playing really good, like I will take the G2 example in 2024, they played really good at some point, but it was the same stuff all over and all over again. And they were good at doing it, but... If we had the right thing at that moment, we will counter it. We were just not good enough, but we will counter it. For us, I think it's tough, because we can do so many different stuff, you know? Sometimes we can be a foreman, sometimes we can be on Mirage, for example, we can be everywhere on the map, we can do the same stuff, and doing a fast pace and slow pace, and we have also a lot of different strats as well. Like, I can run the bombsite on so many different ways, because I work on so many different strategies that, when you are, I'm taking like the spot of a city, and like I need to hold, but yeah, the guy can do that, he can do that, so if I use this spot, I'm blind, I've used this, if they do this, I'm good, but if they do this one, I'm bad. I mean, you know, it creates like so much uncertainty to players and that creates a lot of like tough things for them.

Devilwalk Yeah. All right, there's one final quick thing I want to get on to before we get to viewer questions, Dan, if that's all right with you. Pesh is back.

Banks Yes.

Devilwalk You're good old friends. Just he obviously, even when he was not part of your team as the manager, I still, the only tweets I see from him is about you guys, is about Vitality. He's very French. He loves you guys, but you have such a good relationship with him as well. Is it just like one last ride, go get him another Major?

Banks With Amy, it was just meant to be. It's not only about us, it's the work. Manager is not only being with the team, he's also a lot of work with Jorg. And stuff didn't go the best. She's also part of what we did, the seven trophies together. She's part of that. And I will do this.

Devilwalk She was so passionate. I got her on my personal video when you guys win, full of crying, full of emotions. She was really with and loving in what you guys are doing.

Banks Yeah, you're right. And I'm really happy she was here. And I will not thank her enough for what she did for us. But yeah, Pesh is a different guy. He's just a friend of mine. He's a friend of mine. And he's a good fucking good guy. And it's just good to see him back. And I told him, no, you're back and we will lose everything. So thank you.

Devilwalk Oh, he's the one you blame. He's the one you blame.

apEX You take all the pressure off your back.

Banks It's easy now. So yeah, that's the thing.

Devilwalk That's going to be good. Now, I would also ask about you got your own merchandise right now. This is where we're at, Dan. And I remember commenting when you put it up on Instagram story. So this is on merchskin.club. And the first one I commented about is you even got a T-shirt that says, even my mom was on V with you doing this. The fact we got this on a T-shirt is perfect. This is amazing.

Banks It's a really good thing. We did work together to make a merch. And I think it's really good to have this kind of stuff with like some meme of some important moment.

apEX I think the next one will be this one probably. Yes, I was just about to ask like, when is this one coming?

Banks I think it should be somewhere. But first of all, as we did it before the Major, it's a nice merch and it's good quality as well. I received them. I didn't receive them. I know the product we use and it's really good. So it's really nice.

Devilwalk I got to say though, you now need to level up even more in the gym because they've made you look like a Greek god. We're going to put it on the screen for everyone to see. You got massive biceps, full abs popping out of the shirt and everything. They made Dan look amazing.

Banks The first one where I was a bit chubby, I said, no, I'm not like that. And they did that, I'm like, maybe it's too much, but it's fun.

Devilwalk I love it. This is how you set a new goal for yourself. This is the almost bodybuilder mode. It's like it's dying covered in there.

Banks It's fine.

Devilwalk Oh, we love it. And also, you're not going to get rid of me, mate, because in two days we're doing the show match together. I'm commentating, actually, I'm commentating, just to say that clearly, with Anders. It's on the 16th of July and a couple of days after this filming at 7 p.m. CST. It's you going up against Carrigan. Hello, dog. What's the dog's name? It's Ange.

Banks Like an angel. I think she wants to hit.

Devilwalk She's like, excuse me, you've been here a long time, feeding time now. Nearly done, I promise, Ange. But the show match, you got up against Carrigan, so just another easy dub there, even in the show match, we're going to have some fun.

Banks Yeah, I think the goal is to have some fun. It's always good to have those moments for CS, etc. I just have to use more relaxed games and enjoying some good counter-strike. So I hope people will come with a lot of people will come and we'll enjoy that moment for sure.

Devilwalk I'll just tell you this, as I'm not a commentator, I'm going to be shit talking like a commentator the whole time. I'm going to have some real fun with this.

Banks Enjoy, mate.

Devilwalk They're letting me loose.

Banks Enjoy. You deserve it.

Devilwalk All right. Well, we've got some good viewer questions coming in here. So I'm going to start with the first one, if that's all right with you, Dan.

Banks Sure.

Devilwalk You're good with that?

Banks Yeah, let's go.

Devilwalk Thank you very much again for all the time. So this guy says his name is Mr. Layen says a common past criticism of apEX was his tendency to become overly emotional or tilted. He put tilted in quotation marks during games. Yet we saw none of that in Dallas and Austin. Even the fuck you apEX chance didn't manage to like affect you. How did he manage to stay so composed?

Banks Well, I guess it's also like putting your brain. I was repeating myself to myself for a month. You need to be the best captain you can be. You need to be the best captain. You need to be able to tilt the least possible extra. What's crazy is I think I tilted zero times in Austin, which was the most important tournament. But the sure thing is sometime in Melbourne, after we lose us two rounds against Falcons, 5v3s, it's been known. I don't know if you heard that. I was pretty mad at my teammates. But that was needed and actually if it was the same in the Major, I would have done it. And sometime when you do it in the good way, etc., like right after we won, we lost zero rounds after. So that's really important to do stuff if it's time well. But yeah, it's just working on yourself every day.

apEX I'm sure you were equally tilted in the gym, but 1v5 there.

Banks I was really tilted as well. I was actually tilted there. You see me on the camera that I'm tilted.

apEX Yes, yes.

Devilwalk We did a breakdown of that on the podcast. Devilwalk went through all the moments that allowed it to happen.

apEX There were so many mistakes.

Banks The worst is the same one, but for me, the three one. But yeah, this guy can do mistakes on that.

Devilwalk You're easily out there. Devilwalk, ask the next one for us, please.

apEX Okay, this is from Rizzen. How do you think going to the gym impacted you and the whole team? Also, of all the majors you've won, which one did you love the most? I mean, Paris. You pretty much answered that one.

Banks Paris without a doubt because of the family and at home. But yeah, what helps me is I'm a hyperactive person, so I really need to get some energy out of my body somewhere, and the gym is a good way. Also, the self-confidence, when you grow up muscles and you feel more jacked and et cetera, it's really important for me just to put oxygen in my brain in a way. And I used to run, I just have a fit problem for too long. I wish I could do both because it's also a good way for me to do it well.

apEX Do you have a problem? I have a follow up question. How many gym strats are in Vitality's strat?

Banks Zero, actually. When I find a strat, I call it also the city we are in. So we have Austin, we have Melbourne, we have stuff like that. So we have, for example, there we have a Mezi, Remy, Shanghai, Erick, because I have so many strats there. Kazak, Turbo, Danny the dog, Pera, Vitality, and I can...

Devilwalk I like the Danny the dog.

Banks It's a strat on me when I do something shit.

Devilwalk Okay. I got to ask this though, right? Because when I see you guys in the gym, there's like a team workout, though, right? You and Jack doing some like sets and also Flamzy has been getting more involved. There's a bit of gym synergy with this now, right?

Banks Yeah, exactly. We tried to bring ZywOo and Robs, but it's not possible.

Devilwalk Yeah, that might be too much. What about Macy? Does he come?

Banks Yeah, he does some runs, a couple of runs, so it's good. I've been running with him in Austin, actually.

Devilwalk Oh, in that heat, bro.

Banks In that heat. Yes, we did it together. I was burning, but yeah, I think it's part of us as well. And he helps us to, you know, in a way, in CS, all teams are, CS is 95% of the job, okay? And you could add those little 1% outside of the game, where in the way you eat, in the way you react to things. For example, I don't eat shit in tournaments, except at the end, etc. So it's just small things. The only thing I allow myself is drinking a bit of wines sometime when you go to a restaurant, but that's the only bad thing I do.

Devilwalk Oh, you're French.

Banks You're French, yeah, that's normal.

Devilwalk Alright, the next question. Scorger says, Congratulations on everything recently. Scorger is one of our... He submits a question every single time. Our most valued viewers in here. And he says, Thank you for being one of the best personalities in Counter-Strike. Two questions. Despite your success, do family members still ask you when you're going to get married and have kids settled out, et cetera?

Banks Yes, of course. At some point, people show me the clock. Like, it's coming, bro. It's time now. So yeah, of course, of course. But as I said before, it's time for everything. And also doing it now, as Mezi did, it's that easy because you don't see your kid that much. He's growing and then it's so... It's a choose of life. But for me, for now, I'm going to wait a bit.

Devilwalk Yeah, I advise the waiting for a bit as well, because I'm in the same situation as Mezi. And you miss a lot of the key moments. You're thankful for the ones you do get to have. But I guess I look at it probably in a similar way to Mezi of you do it now for the better life you can live. But yeah, each to their own with it. And then second question, I didn't even know this by the way, so this might be wrong. He says, as someone else has asked about going to the gym, I'm going to ask this, what are the perks of being sponsored by Magnum and Ben of Jerry's Ice Cream at Team Vitality? I don't even know this is a sponsorship.

Banks Actually, I don't know if you've seen this, but we did like a ad. It's all for them. It's actually going on UberEats, I think in France. And I heard it's one of the best ad in UberEats. So Vitality Magnum. I don't know if it's on the thing. It should be there and I don't find it.

apEX DanapEX guilty pleasure.

Banks No, actually, it's sugar. I mean, I need to eat at least sugar I can. But yeah, I did it and I loved it. I mean, it was good to eat this good sugar. But because I had to do the advertising, otherwise I would never do it.

Devilwalk I can't find it. I'll look back and try to find it. I'll have to find it afterwards. But that's pretty, that's pretty baller. All right, next question.

apEX Is it the one with the chef's board?

Banks We are. I'm with Vywoo on the couch. And I'm eating and you see me straight away. But I'm not sure it's there, actually. So I don't know.

apEX Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's this one. I'll drop it in our chat here. I think it's this one.

Banks Where is the chat?

apEX On the recording, on the channel, we are in Discord.

Banks It's called the...

Devilwalk Oh, it's an Instagram.

Banks There we go. Where is the chat?

apEX So you go on the... where we are sitting in the room.

Banks I don't see the... actually, I don't see the room where I could move on.

apEX Okay, then I will send it to you privately.

Devilwalk Dan, you are facing this. This one?

Banks He works really well.

Devilwalk He's really enjoying himself.

Banks Exactly. And he works really well. That's what we do in media days sometimes.

apEX He deserves an Oscar for this.

Banks Very bien, Grand Slam winners and fuck you, it's written as well on the fridge.

Devilwalk And now he takes it from me.

Banks Yeah, exactly. That's because he says, yeah, we're watching the game, but I'm doing noise. And he's like, oh, fuck it. What are you doing? And he tries as well after.

Devilwalk It's the close-ups.

Banks This is killing me.

Devilwalk And there's Rob.

Banks And then Zayu enjoys as well at the end. And Rob is like, guys, you're supposed to watch the game.

Devilwalk Yeah, yeah.

Banks That's a good one.

Devilwalk Oh, that's brilliant. I like that. That's a nice, fun one. All right. Next question. Devilwalk.

apEX What moments in your career stand out as turning points, both high and lows? And this is from GX Markeleon.

Banks Low point of my career was probably 2018 before I joined Vitality. I got bench from G2 and I spent a couple of months, two or three on the bench, where G2 wants to buy to sell me for too much money. So it's getting really rough. And yeah, so if I have to point this one, and it was really tough to go against, but thanks Vitality arrived and I'm there. And I hope this late last six months has been the best moment of my career so far without a doubt. And it's been, I will say, enjoyable.

apEX Yeah. Another question. I'll take one more from this guy. GX Markeleon. Who's the most underrated player you've played with or against?

Banks Against, it's too hard to answer because there are so many players. So and my career is so long that I have no idea if I have to. But played with, of course, Maze is here. Maybe he has to be up there. And I'm thinking about LPK as well, because stat-wise, he wasn't the best, but he was also a really good teammate, etc. I think I would go with both of them.

Devilwalk LPK, is he still working on the cards and stuff now?

Banks Yes, he does. He's been a while.

Devilwalk He loves that, right? It's like his passion.

Banks It is. It's been a while since I saw him, actually. Like a bit less than a year, I saw him. We had a restaurant together, but yeah, it goes well. We still talk sometimes. And it's been already four years he retired. That's crazy. Life is crazy.

Devilwalk That is, it goes so fast. It goes so fast. I'm going to ask one more question from this Mark Elion guy, because this is a funny one, and I think we'll get a good answer from you, Apex. So he says, off the server for a moment, I've been curious to ask you this. I noticed you follow FC Barcelona on your socials. So I'm guessing you're a fan. Barcelona was so close to winning the treble this season. Did you watch many of their games? And what did you think of their run? Do you really think they can actually win the treble under Hansi Flick next season?

Banks There is a spider. The guy, thanks God I don't follow pornstars on my Instagram.

Devilwalk You might get in trouble with the girlfriend for that as well.

Banks She will be fine. It's just following. I mean, he's just watching. What we say in France is, the only thing I have left is my eyes. True, true.

Devilwalk I like that way of looking at it.

Banks I used to be a Barcelona fan mostly before because I'm a big fan of Messi. I love Messi and for me, he's the greatest of all time and I just love him. I went a lot watching Barcelona games, etc. So I still follow them. I follow them a bit less lately, but I still support them. So yeah, it's been a rough season because they won only two, but not the most important ones. But that's the way it is. Next season, let's see how Yamal as well is getting there and everything will go.

Devilwalk That's it. Thank you very much. Next on DevWalks from JaffaCast, you can do that.

apEX Yeah. As you've been on IGL for many years and this season being your most successful season, what steps have you taken as a team to prioritize your mental health and prevent burnout?

Banks It's good. It's a good question. So for me, what's important is having blocks. We call that blocks. For example, the first block of the beginning of the season was Bootcamp Bunti Katowice. First block. We give everything in those months and a half. Then we have a week break. That's why we didn't do also the PGA events, because then it's too much at the end. So we create this block, we give our best, we have a week off. Great. Then we continue. We had preparation, Stockholm two weeks, Blastiesbund two weeks. Okay. Break again. One week break. Then again, practice, Melbourne, Blast Rivals. A little break and then Dallas and the Major and break again. So we had like three breaks in the season where some team didn't have it. So for me, people need to understand that it's so important to work. It's so important to give your best in CS, etc. That's for sure. I'm the first one to work hard. But what's important is having too small breaks where you can just breathe and do something else. That's what we do. People think that the thing is also right now, people say, yeah, but it's working for you, so it's good to do it. But if it doesn't work, you shouldn't do it. Yeah, we should still do it. Because you know, when you arrive to an event, you fail and you're like, oh, we need to work so much harder. Is that good enough? And then you keep going on another and another and then you get...

apEX Yeah.

Devilwalk And then it's a bad loop down.

Banks And then it drops down. So for me, mental health in that way, it's really important to be able to rest. And most of us are not allowed to go on the PC. Like, just go away, do something else. Me, I never go on the PC, except sometimes I go at the end, like the Sunday, because I need to prepare as well some new things for the strats time we have. So I try to put my brain away for six days or five days and do one day of full enjoyment.

apEX That's a really smart way to do it, I think so.

Devilwalk Yeah, and a lot of teams aren't doing it as well. A lot of teams just full grind this time as well. Are you going to keep this same, like two events one week off during this next season?

Banks Depends. For example, it's going to be a bit different at the beginning of the season because we have almost four events in a row. We have Cologne to Bounty to EWC to Blast Open. So we won't be able to take so much like rest. But after that, instead of five in seven days, we'll have ten days because then we have EPL and we have between the end of Blast Open and the beginning of EPL, I think it's a month. So we take ten days off and then we have two weeks and a half.

Devilwalk From September to October of first because you'll skip Fissure. Yes. So you're skipping the Fissures and the PGL events, stuff like that, right?

Banks Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Devilwalk Yeah, yeah. Perfect. That's a very good way of doing it. All right. The next one is from Shadow Haunter. How is the team feeling after losing the first map versus the Mongols and the crowd being heavily against you? We kind of answered that, right? We covered that early in the podcast, so that's fine. I'll go on to the next one then from Jack Soon. He says, what was the journey for you like coming in IGL? What came naturally and what aspects did you have to work on over the years? I guess, we have kind of covered it. Kind of, yes.

Banks I would answer quickly. What came naturally is like my work ethic, like a human leader and do stuff. And what I had to work hard for is being open with my teammates and listening to them, and also being able to work on my emotions.

apEX This is from Casper. As the player currently has the most aura right now in CS, do you think being vocal against enemies boosts your confidence and performance?

Banks Even though, I mean, I always scream on people, is that we're not going to change because I have more aura, as I say, or less aura. What's important for me is being myself 24-7. And the person you see in tournaments is not a fake apEX, is that the real apEX, the guy that's Dan at the end, you know, it's just me and I'm trying to be myself most of the time. So, yep, that's it.

Devilwalk See, I like what Dan's saying here on a lot of this, because we said about this, this authenticity you have of it. It's the same thing that comes to me. Dan, you know, Vitality, Navi is my team, right? But I'm not biased towards them. It's just my team, my friends, my organization, I know. And so many people go, you work as a talent. You can't be with one team. I said, what am I supposed to do? They just lie and just like be like, no, I'm not. I'm still a fan of the fucking game. I still enjoy the game. I watch the game. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate when Spirit wins or when Vitality win, whatever else is happening. So, yeah, it should always be that way. I think the good example is like looking at, if you're not being yourself and you go away from that, then the fans will see a difference in you and then it's not a nice reality of it all. I think that's what we've got in CS especially. CS is so good that we can be us and you're not a riot game, where you can't say fuck you and this and you get in trouble for it. We can be us and the fans see that and feed off that and they can hate you, they can love you, but it's you.

Banks Exactly, that's what we love the most, just being ourselves and that's the best. I agree.

Devilwalk I never want Valve to change that ever. They should never change that. Well, this is a good one. Slim says, what do you think about the loadout system in CS2? Personally, I think it's an incredibly poor addition and there shouldn't be a limit on what weapons you can choose from during a match.

Banks There is a good of the bad thing from Lowdart. Now, finally, we can play with the 2M4s. We asked that forever. Now, we can choose. Like me, I love the big M4, but I'm not good enough with it, so I don't use it enough. I think a lot of my teammates, they just changed with the situation when they knew an aggro move where they feel better, et cetera. I think it's a really good thing. So I think the loadout is, yeah, sometimes it's pretty annoying that I can't take the hog and the scouts at the same time, because if I have the 2M4s, et cetera. So you have some struggle like that, but that's part of the game. I mean, you know, I'm not a complainer anyway. I'm not complaining that much overall when people say, yeah, what do you think about that? I just do my best to, when I hear like those newbies saying, he is doing shit, like shut the fuck up and work hard to just do the best you can. It's just bad to say that.

Devilwalk You played Source at the beginning, Dan, didn't you? That was really bad at the start. That was not fun.

Banks Actually, I didn't play at the start of Source. I played when it was good.

Devilwalk Okay. You came on the rise up. I remember the very early days of Source, I was like, oh God, oh what is this?

Banks It was really bad, but then it got better. Yeah, exactly.

Devilwalk Yeah, they did improve it. One final question, DW.

apEX Okay. From Cam, as a player, you've been prone to tilting and its impact was most apparent in the Melbourne Grand Final versus Falcons. But by the Major, you reset multiple times and remained very effective in your games. You mentioned in interviews at the Major that this has been a focus of yours. What made you realize it's something you needed to work on? And what did you do to work? Your name is in the way. What did you do to work on it? And how did you achieve such significant improvements in your mental game in such a short period of time?

Banks No, I think Melbourne, I was not that tilted. I just, as I said before, there was a moment as I did, you need to, I'm not a, you know, I heard Yakin, they're saying, oh, it's cool because Fallen never tilts. That's bullshit. You're not a great agitator because you never tilt. That's not true. Everyone is different and the way that Fallen does things doesn't mean that I'm doing bad because I'm different than that. And so that's bullshit for me. It just, sometimes it's needed, sometimes I fail to do it, sometimes I don't fail to do it. So for me, in Marble, maybe I got tilt a bit of times. Actually, I don't remember that much, but maybe a bit, that's for sure. But it's because sometimes it's needed and you feel you need to be the team away. And what's important is the reaction of your team because when I got tilted, the team was going up. And that's what's needed. It's not like just tilt to tilt. It just tilts because I know at that moment, I didn't tilt on the first 5v3, I tilt on the second one because I'm like, it's normal to do one mistake sometimes, it's fine. Let's do it in the next one. But three in a row because we play the same way is not, we're not allowed to do it. So for me, exactly. So you need to, I'm also like the voice and I'm also responsible for that. I need to find a solution. And I maybe did things before that didn't work. So you need to understand that. And also, yeah, once again, I need to be myself. And sometimes, if I'm frustrated, it's also because I have too many emotions, too many, too many frustrations in myself that needs to go out. And what you need to understand is also my teammates accept that they know me. They know I'm this guy. So if I scream that way, it's just because also I need it. And it's because people fuck up. So they don't take it bad like it was the first time. They know me, so it doesn't affect them as much as you guys think.

Devilwalk Yeah, and do you know what's funny? Because what you're saying there, Dan, I remember some analysts said when Rob's joined, oh, he won't like how apEX is. He won't be able to deal with it or accept it. Look where we're at right now. Like, it's all still working.

apEX No, but it's right what you're saying. Like, different things are needed at different times, you know? If you're just smiling happy every time someone does a mistake and joke about it, it will lose how effective it is. You need to do things differently and at the right time.

Banks Exactly. You're right. And accepting it also, like, people don't see it the same way, but, okay, Rob doesn't accept because he's a more chill guy, for sure, he's more calm. But, you know, Robin sometimes doesn't talk like much. So I need to be mad at him then. It's the same way. People don't see it the same, but tilting, there is two ways of tilting. I mean, raps is not like that. I'm not talking about raps, but in general, like, because I never heard Robin tilting, except once in practice, I think. To be honest, only once. But there is two ways. First way is showing your emotion, being like tilted as I am, like, oh, fuck it, slamming. The other people, they are like getting more calm, like they don't talk anymore. What's the worst? I think it's more calm, I promise. Because at least the guy, when he's frustrated, he says it, the goal is that he's able to reset. That's just the most important. When people go down, it's the worst. When people are too quiet, it's the worst. I promise you.

Devilwalk See, I need to change my behavior, because Devilwalk is always like, Banks, I've not heard you in three rounds, and I'm just fucking silently. We play facing together and he knows what I'm doing.

apEX Banks, did you mute your mic?

Devilwalk I'm just full fucking with the game.

Banks So, it's just different, like, just people. What's important at the end is we are humans. We are different. We have different way to deal with emotions. We need to accept each other. But then, you need to show improvement. If someone tells you, if my teammate comes and raps, come and say, Dan, I think you're too much tilt, you're too much emotional. Like you need to sometimes try to go down. I would say, okay, I'm gonna work on this. I'm sure you that I care of what you say and get better. That's what matters, because we will not change. I said it already at the beginning that I was not myself at the beginning, and that's important to be so. But don't be too much yourself. That's the only thing.

Devilwalk Well, Dan, this was absolutely incredible. First of all, thank you so much for giving me all this time and being with us, man. This was a fun opening. Yeah, this is we got to learn more. But you should see the research we try to do is we watch like past podcasts you've been on, past Nels document on you where he wrote that article, some other articles and things trying to learn. But a lot of stuff is in French. And watching that with English subtitles is such. It's hard for me to understand because it sometimes doesn't translate correctly. But even then, we've still been able to learn so much from this. I hope so. It's been an absolute pleasure, man. So thank you so much for that.

Banks That was cool.

Devilwalk I'm sure people are going to enjoy it.

Banks I hope so. It was cool for me as well. So thank you guys for hosting.

Devilwalk You said something there. You said sometimes you watch the podcast and things. Are you someone who watches a lot of these different shows or tries to pay attention to any of this stuff? Not just ours, I mean like in general.

Banks I'm not watching the world thing, I will be honest. I'm watching stuff that's interesting for myself. Okay. Sometimes the borders are about the way you see things, etc. And I do that. Sometimes you see on the show that you see shorts or whatever of people doing some comments. So I'm reading, sometimes I'm just listening to the world way. So yeah, of course, sometimes I'm listening to some terrain, you guys, HLTV, but not too much because of course, I don't have time to watch everyone and I listen to everyone myself. But it's interesting to see different points of view and I'll use guys. I like also how people see us, what you guys think about us. And then I'm like, okay, they're completely wrong because we don't know.

Devilwalk Please tell us, we'd love to learn.

Banks Sometimes I can't say too much as well, but you speak, I don't know how to say in English. I'm not sure it's an English word, but yeah, whatever. But you say things that you're not sure about, which is normal, you need also to be able to talk. I'm like, no, it's not exactly like that at all. That's also fun to see people's perspective about us, about things on us, about what's going on in a certain way. Or sometimes when I know about something and I hear about, okay, how people react about it, or sometimes more precise stuff about a player, what they think about the player. Yeah, I like to listen to those things.

Devilwalk I always try to see, because I'm very privileged with doing the interviews. A lot of players talk to me about stuff, and they'll always tell me, like, you can't say about this, so I don't ever repeat things. But I'll always say on the podcast, I don't have any insight from this to make sure all the fans know it's clear. I think, like, I'm seeing this and I think it could be this, for example. You know, like, the hardest one was this jail Navi move, because obviously I knew that was coming from a mile off. I just told people, it's definitely not ever going, like, everyone thought it was pointing to him the whole time.

Banks Yeah, yeah.

Devilwalk But that's the beauty of it all, right? Some of it is speculation, some of it is what we see and how we view things. Yeah, exactly. So, Dan, I was going to say, the last thing is for you to address anything you want to say to the fans. Final words, mate.

Banks Sorry, can you repeat the end? I didn't listen. I didn't hear the end.

Devilwalk You can say your final words to all the fans who are watching.

Banks Well, the last six months have been a privilege for us in a lot of ways, being for the fans, for us, for CS in general. So, I'm really glad to be able to do that for, to do that job for everyone, because we live so much emotions together and so it's good. Thanks everyone for supporting us, for following us. I think I got 50k followers and more on Instagram. I think thanks to the Majors. So, hello to the new followers. But I'm privileged, as you said, we are privileged to do that work. And without the fans, without the people watching, we wouldn't be no one because there would be no sponsors, there would be no hype, there would be nothing like a lot of shit games. So, I'm really glad you guys are there and I hope we will keep winning because as I said, I'm not done winning. And even though I'm 32 years old, I'm still super angry to win trophies.

Devilwalk And if you keep jibbing, you keep going like you're doing, you'll stay young, stay fragging, still doing your good wins and your many trophies.

Banks I hope so, I hope so. That's the job.

apEX I wish you the best of luck on doing it. And I hope you achieve that historic best season or best year ever, I guess. I hope so too.

Banks Thank you. Thank you.

apEX And thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure to talk to you.

Banks That was really good. I just said to Bengh, I think for me it was important to not do it. Cause at some point I did a lot.

Devilwalk Oh yeah, I didn't tell anyone this.

Banks I did a lot in the room. I told Bengh that we should wait a bit because actually it's good that we won the major. So it's even better than my first long interview.

Devilwalk It's even better.

Banks The first long interview I do after the major. So I think it's good because I did a lot at some point. For me it's also good to be able to be a guy that is not everywhere all the time. Because even though it's a bit different and you work differently than the others, people still see me so they're tired. Actually I worked out on my... There is a lot of YouTube videos from French lately of myself. And on Twitter I almost apologize that sorry that you see me that much. And I also want to be also a bit more of a guy that you know but don't know too much because it's good to have a little bit of secret. But it's sometimes just coming and saying things and etc. But it was really nice and I enjoyed more than four hours. I think the first time I do that.

Devilwalk I didn't expect it to be this long. I know you can talk but I didn't expect this. And Dan, you are 100% right. You know when they won the Major, Devilwalk, he said to me at the party, he goes, hey, it's good we didn't do this interview before because I wanted to do it before the Major and get his thoughts. And he's like, I told you this would be good. Hey, look, it absolutely delivered. So that was right again with his amazing memory. An incredible year so far for 2025. Let's see what the rest of it holds for him. Definitely going to be front runners and favorites coming into Cologne. It's been a pleasure having you, man. This was episode 19 of the All About Counter-Strike Podcast. It's been all about apEX. We'll see you on the next episode, which will be a preview of Cologne and looking at all of the roster moves, all the craziness that's been going on in the Counter-Strike scene. See you later.